Klipsch RF-3 or Forte II

[moray james]

Dingman, what is your opinion on the sound of your KLF 20s vs the Forte II's?

just a note that the KLF series 20/30 both were shipped stock with shiny black poly tweeter diaphragms in their K79 tweeters. These thin plastic diaphragms are very poor performers and really need to be changed to a phenolic or to the Crites ti diaphragm. The KLF20/30 also respond very well to having a set of Klipsch ti mid diaphragms installed as well. This is in fact a bigger improvement than that of the ti tweeter diaphragm. Watch for KLF in general for loose front and back baffles this was a factory problem as a result of a defective adhesive. I have had three sets of KLF20 all had baffle adhesive issues. When repaired they can be turned into excellent speakers. I prefer the sound of the KLF20 woofer to those in my CF3 I sold the CF3 woofers but that's just my taste. The horn in the CF3/4 is the best horn thus far in Klipsch home speakers short of the K510 (this is a pro horn not a home speaker horn) which I expect would be better but very similar to the CF3/4 horn. Best regards Moray James.

 

[diamonddelts]

Ahh, the real agenda rears it's ugly head.

You are a "all amps, cables, etc. sound the same guy".....

I embrace the enjoyment of music. Not the stress and frustration of blind listening tests. There are real differences in ALL equipment.

You keep reading oscilloscopes and test measurements. I will buy what I want according to what sounds the best. Long term enjoyment is what I think most people around here are after. And I would venture to say that most (but not all) agree with my subjectivist thinking.

My agenda is to get a good pair of vintage Klipsch speakers for my bedroom. As far as my opinions, I have science to back up my thoughts. You have unfounded hearsay and zero experience in a structured listening test environment. Your experience hearing other major designs on a yearly basis appears to be extremely limited. So your ability to comment on where your gear stands in today's audio environment is not going to be worth much. Your derogatory comments towards someone else's gear that you have never even heard before is going to be worth even less.

You appear to have a problem with an "all amps sound the same guy". You feel one should let their ears interpret the music before passing judgement it seems. Yet you embrace the ignorance of a guy who questions an amp his own ears have never even heard before. Let alone an amp that has already tested well.

Zero logic. Zero basis in science.

 

[HarleySG]

My agenda is to get a good pair of vintage Klipsch speakers for my bedroom. As far as my opinions, I have science to back up my thoughts. You have unfounded hearsay and zero experience in a structured listening test environment. Your experience hearing other major designs on a yearly basis appears to be extremely limited. So your ability to comment on where your gear stands in today's audio environment is not going to be worth much. Your derogatory comments towards someone else's gear that you have never even heard before is going to be worth even less.

You appear to have a problem with an "all amps sound the same guy". Yet you embrace the ignorance of a guy who questions the purchase of an amp he has never even heard before.

I have owned no less than 30 different pairs of speakers in the last 15 years ranging in price up to 15K. It isn't exactly like I have no experience. I have owned nearly as many amps and preamps too.

Don't assume to know me, you don't........

 

[diamonddelts]

just a note that the KLF series 20/30 both were shipped stock with shiny black poly tweeter diaphragms in their K79 tweeters. These thin plastic diaphragms are very poor performers and really need to be changed to a phenolic or to the Crites ti diaphragm. The KLF20/30 also respond very well to having a set of Klipsch ti mid diaphragms installed as well. This is in fact a bigger improvement that that of the ti tweeter diaphragm. Watch with KLF in general for loose front and back baffles this was a factory problem as a result of a defective adhesive. I have had three sets of KLF20 all had baffle adhesive issues. When repaired they can be turned into excellent speakers. I prefer the sound of the KLF20 woofer to those in my CF3 I sold the CF3 woofers but that's just my taste. The horn in the CF3/4 is the best horn thus far in Klipsch home speakers short of the K510 (this is a pro horn not a home speaker horn) which I expect would be better but very similar to the CF3/4 horn. Best regards Moray James.

Thank you once again for the info Mr. James. The CF-4 speaker looks beautiful. I've seen widely varying opinions on them though. Some people rave about them. While a few stated they have poor midrange, lack of bass, and not much definition. Kind of has me confused. But I know opinions just like each set of ears will always vary. I really want to hear a pair of these speakers. I'm probing CL and ebay on a daily basis in the morning and evenings. Nothing yet. But I will keep going like the Eye of Sauron with an ever watchful eye till I find a pair available.

 

[diamonddelts]

curious to know if your issues with the Forte ll bass was with level or with the extension or with both? Y

PS: lots of other mods that can be done as well if the itch needs a scratch.

I think it was both. The bass seemed almost silent until I start pushing them past 80db minimum. At higher levels bass sounded good but definitely not deep enough during movies. I like foot tingling bass at low to mid volume levels. The mids and highs were perfect for what I was looking for though, hence why I should have tried adding a sub to fill in the low end before selling them. Definitely having seller's remorse at this time.

 

[luvvinvinyl]

Gentlemen, you are both hereby warned about insults, personal attacks, and provocation, regardless of whether you consider the other party the instigator. Such conduct is neither appreciated here, nor tolerated.

Remember this: Your discussion is like playing chess with a pigeon. At some point that bird is going to **** on the board, and strut away, convinced he is the winner.

So, the two of you knock it off, lest people confuse each of you for being the pigeon.

 

[HarleySG]

Duly noted.

 

[Dingman]

Dingman, what is your opinion on the sound of your KLF 20s vs the Forte II's?

Sorry, a bit slow this weekend.

I have a hard time quantifying the difference, I didn't have them in the same house for long. While I did, I did compare just a little and I think I liked the KLF better. But then I made quite a few modifications to the KLF's (mostly repair of baffle attachment) and they sound better then ever. But again, can't compare anymore with the speakers spread around like they are.

But I did note that the ForteII filled the room nicely. Moving those speakers back and forth is a pain in the back tho.
You might have found this thread already.

Good luck with your search..

 

[Tapehead47]

Thank you for verifying what I had stated earlier.
You must have a generous audio budget!

 

[diamonddelts]

Sorry, a bit slow this weekend.

I have a hard time quantifying the difference, I didn't have them in the same house for long. While I did, I did compare just a little and I think I liked the KLF better. But then I made quite a few modifications to the KLF's (mostly repair of baffle attachment) and they sound better then ever. But again, can't compare anymore with the speakers spread around like they are.

But I did note that the ForteII filled the room nicely. Moving those speakers back and forth is a pain in the back tho.
You might have found this thread already.

Good luck with your search..

Thanks. That is a superb group of speakers you have there. Looks like you have the Chorus iis as well. How does their bass comparw to the Forte iis in your opinion?

 

[Dingman]

I only compared for about a week, and comparison was before the Crites upgrades.

The ForteII seemed to have less bass, less boomy. Tighter, seemed to hit the notes better.
The Chorus seemed to have more bass, more boomy, not as tight.

I think the above is accurate. I did move the CII out away from the wall and run the amp in "direct" mode and they sound pretty damn good. I didn't have long to play with the FII, so my opinion came from limited listening\adjustment time and I wouldn't be surprised if I would change my mind with a more extended time frame.

Space was at a premium, so gave-loaned them to a friend (basically, I told him they are yours until you don't want them, then you give them back. NO SELLING THEM.)

 

[quadklipsh]

lots of things learned here . thanks for this thread guys.
im a poor rf3 only , owner.

 

[diamonddelts]

I only compared for about a week, and comparison was before the Crites upgrades.

The ForteII seemed to have less bass, less boomy. Tighter, seemed to hit the notes better.
The Chorus seemed to have more bass, more boomy, not as tight.

I think the above is accurate. I did move the CII out away from the wall and run the amp in "direct" mode and they sound pretty damn good. I didn't have long to play with the FII, so my opinion came from limited listening\adjustment time and I wouldn't be surprised if I would change my mind with a more extended time frame.

Space was at a premium, so gave-loaned them to a friend (basically, I told him they are yours until you don't want them, then you give them back. NO SELLING THEM.)

Thanks for your answers Dingman. It looks like I will be picking up a pair of Cornwall II's on Thursday. Hopefully they will have the big soundstage I'm looking for along with clarity and definition between the highs and midrange to at least match what I was hearing with the Forte II's. If bass extension is a problem I will add a 12" or 15" sub.

 

[moray james]

If you check on the Klipsch site you will find the Chorus ll has the same bass response as a Cornwall (for argument sake). So it is already down at 40 Hz and dropping fast. The Forte shows a minus 3db point of 32 Hz. The Chorus ll is more efficient given the larger woofer but the horns in a Chorus ll are identical to the Forte ll so you can expect the same stage image and balance. The Chorus ll can move a lot more air than a single twelve inch woofer can and many mistake more air movement with deeper bass but that is not the case the Chorus simply moves more air at 40 Hz than a Forte does. You can add dead weight to the Passive in a Chorus ll just as in the Forte and Forte ll. Bass response can be lowered 3 - 4Hz easily which makes for a very nice difference. A KLF30 can move a lot more air than a single fifteen inch woofer can so you might consider those. A KLF30 also positions the horns a lot higher up off the floor which ought to be a plus in a bedroom situation. Best regards Moray James.

 

[diamonddelts]

If you check on the Klipsch site you will find the Chorus ll has the same bass response as a Cornwall (for argument sake). So it is already down at 40 Hz and dropping fast. The Forte shows a minus 3db point of 32 Hz. The Chorus ll is more efficient given the larger woofer but the horns in a Chorus ll are identical to the Forte ll so you can expect the same stage image and balance. The Chorus ll can move a lot more air than a single twelve inch woofer can and many mistake more air movement with deeper bass but that is not the case the Chorus simply moves more air at 40 Hz than a Forte does. You can add dead weight to the Passive in a Chorus ll just as in the Forte and Forte ll. Bass response can be lowered 3 - 4Hz easily which makes for a very nice difference. A KLF30 can move a lot more air than a single fifteen inch woofer can so you might consider those. A KLF30 also positions the horns a lot higher up off the floor which ought to be a plus in a bedroom situation. Best regards Moray James.

I agree with your thoughts Moray. However the prices on the Forte II's are ranging from $450-$500. I just can't justify repurchasing a used 3 way design with a single 12" woofer for such an elevated price. I believe $300 is a fair price for them. I'm gonna send the sellers my offer today. However if neither seller is willing to budge on their price it looks like the Cornwall will be my only avenue at this point.

Also, the Cornwall looks like a Cornwall II however the tag only says Cornwall. The seller states he purchased it in 1984. I thought Klipsch was only manufacturing Cornwall II's during that time?

 

[RH67]

I only compared for about a week, and comparison was before the Crites upgrades.

The ForteII seemed to have less bass, less boomy. Tighter, seemed to hit the notes better.
The Chorus seemed to have more bass, more boomy, not as tight.

I think the above is accurate. I did move the CII out away from the wall and run the amp in "direct" mode and they sound pretty damn good. I didn't have long to play with the FII, so my opinion came from limited listening\adjustment time and I wouldn't be surprised if I would change my mind with a more extended time frame.

Space was at a premium, so gave-loaned them to a friend (basically, I told him they are yours until you don't want them, then you give them back. NO SELLING THEM.)

I have to agree with you on your thoughts about the bass. The Forte`s are an accurate reproducers of bass and are mostly void of boom.

I have owned original Forte speakers since 1985 and the equipment used with them can make a night and day difference. Quality in really does mean quality out with these speakers. Just because they are old does not mean that they do not deserve the best in electronics. Right now i`m using a Line Magnetic 501IA amp to power them and before the 501IA i had them connected to my AR Reference 150, with these amps you would never say that these speakers lacked any kind of bass. Now with lesser amps they can sound bass shy.

I have owned many speakers during the last 40+ years from Wilson Wamm`s and everything in between to a current pair of Harbeth 30`s. While the Harbeth`s might do a thing or two slightly better look at the price difference, is that 4% difference in performance worth 10k? I have had friends over to listen and some like the Forte`s better. For this reason i have held on to these speakers for 30+ years.

With the right electronics the Forte`s can hold their own against many speakers from the 2k to 10k price range today given the right electronics.

 

[moray james]

I agree with your thoughts Moray. However the prices on the Forte II's are ranging from $450-$500. I just can't justify repurchasing a used 3 way design with a single 12" woofer for such an elevated price. I believe $300 is a fair price for them. I'm gonna send the sellers my offer today. However if neither seller is willing to budge on their price it looks like the Cornwall will be my only avenue at this point.

Also, the Cornwall looks like a Cornwall II however the tag only says Cornwall. The seller states he purchased it in 1984. I thought Klipsch was only manufacturing Cornwall II's during that time?

Speaker build dates

the Cornwall was built from 1959 - 1985
the Cornwall ll was built from 1986 -1990
the Chorus essentially replaced the Cornwall from 1987 - 1990 followed by Chorus ll
the Chorus ll was built from 1990 - 1996
the Cornwall lll went into production in 2006

Value is a personal thing but I cannot imagine that I could find a speaker (new) for $1000.00/pr that could equal the bandwidth and performance of a Forte or Forte ll, I see them as exceptional performers which respond very well to modification and upgrades. I don't think I could find a new speaker in the 1K range with parts near the quality of those in a Forte or Forte ll.

All of the Klipsch Heritage speakers more or less evolved slowly from one version to the next so a late model Heresy 1985 is very close to a Heresy ll. The extended Heritage models had much shorter life spans and did much less evolution as in the Quartet, Forte and Forte ll and the Chorus and the Chorus ll. The KLF Legend series had a relatively short run as did the Epic series.

I have a soft spot for any of the speakers designed by Roy Delgado. Roy designed the forte ll the Epic series and then Roy and PWK designed the Jubilee. Roy then went on to Pro components where some of his his most notable designs are the K510 the K402 and the new 18" horn sub woofer. Gary Gillam also designed a lot of fine speakers at Klipsch and with PWK. The KG series (Gillam/Klipsch) is still a very popular product line. Best regards Moray James.

 

[diamonddelts]

Speaker build dates

the Cornwall was built from 1959 - 1985
the Cornwall ll was built from 1986 -1990
the Chorus essentially replaced the Cornwall from 1987 - 1990 followed by Chorus ll
the Chorus ll was built from 1990 - 1996
the Cornwall lll went into production in 2006

Value is a personal thing but I cannot imagine that I could find a speaker (new) for $1000.00/pr that could equal the bandwidth and performance of a Forte or Forte ll, I see them as exceptional performers which respond very well to modification and upgrades. I don't think I could find a new speaker in the 1K range with parts near the quality of those in a Forte or Forte ll.

All of the Klipsch Heritage speakers more or less evolved slowly from one version to the next so a late model Heresy 1985 is very close to a Heresy ll. The extended Heritage models had much shorter life spans and did much less evolution as in the Quartet, Forte and Forte ll and the Chorus and the Chorus ll. The KLF Legend series had a relatively short run as did the Epic series.

I have a soft spot for any of the speakers designed by Roy Delgado. Roy designed the forte ll the Epic series and then Roy and PWK designed the Jubilee. Roy then went on to Pro components where some of his his most notable designs are the K510 the K402 and the new 18" horn sub woofer. Gary Gillam also designed a lot of fine speakers at Klipsch and with PWK. The KG series (Gillam/Klipsch) is still a very popular product line. Best regards Moray James.

Thank you very much for the clarification Moray. I've sent my offers to both sellers. Just have to sit and wait now. Though in all honesty, I still have a deep disdain for passive radiator designs. I know they are technically superior to many ported bass reflex designs since it's much harder to get those correct and they are poorly done more often than not. But in my personal experience passive radiators just never get it done in the bass dept for me.

 

[diamonddelts]

Also, any one know if there were any ported Klipsch center speakers made? I have a Klipsch KV-4 and I am not digging the sealed sound at all.

 

[zebra03]

I have had 5.5's for 20 years now and they are still my best speaker for my money. They are ported and they are worth a listen .