Leben. Thinking something drastic here.
- Thread starter JohnVF
- Start date
Sound Dragon
Yawns and sets his couch on fire!
Im confused. Is the gear suposed to fulfill the "The Peter’s Principle" or the "discerning, well educated, sensitive, youthful, golden ear (nick named Harry) that can detect minute improvements in sound quality" Curious mind would like to know? Well just me.
As to John, Congratulations on coming to your decision. I am saving my pennies for a 600. However the 300x has a following among Leben followers who may or may not have "discerning, well educated, sensitive, youthful, golden ear that can detect minute improvements in sound quality"
Just saying!
I'm hoping this 'ledge of contentment' lasts a long time. Harry is my cat, by the way. My constant listening partner. He'd be sad if something else around here had that name. But he has a good ear...you can tell when the treble is fatiguing because his ears start doing this radar-dish-like rotation in loud passages.
But Harry (my youthful golden ear?) doesn't necessarily notice improvements anymore..rather, I like hearing differences. Everything that has been here for at least a year has been 'good enough'. Now, it's just a matter of deciding which flavor of good, is the best for me. I think I give off the impression that I'm never happy with anything here. Actually, I'm very happy with a lot of the gear I have. It's all very 'hi fi', whatever that really means. But I'm narrowing down to a particular sound with the Harbeth/Leben (and Cabasse) setup. It's not about hi fi, its about music. If I choose to chase the CS-600, I'll worry about that later. I'm listening to my Fisher X-202b right now, and it really makes one wonder why I bother with anything better than this at all!
I still think you should have sold your soul and sprung for the CS600.
Me too! I'd have taken a CS600 off his hands had it not lived up.
Do you guys honestly think that I'm done? c'mon
I'll have the CS-600 someday, if I like the CS-300x and feel that I need more power. I'm narrowing my tastes but I like things about both the EL-84, and EL-34. I actually like the sound of an EL-84 based amp better, so if the 300x works out, I'll be very happy. Some seem to think that the compromise is in the CS-300. Reading up on Leben, the compromise seems to be needing the power of the CS-600--many seem to think the 300x is the better sounding amp IF it is powerful enough for your needs. I hedged my bets with the Cabasse speakers..and I actually like them about the same as the Harbeths, which was a BIG surprise to me, on the amplification I already have. They're outstanding.
After perusing through 21 pages, this is what I'm still wondering. I'd love to get a report (because if I had upwards of $5k I didn't know what to do with, Leben, Shindo, a few others would be on my short list of amplification choices) as to what exactly you or others who own such an amp are finding to be the advantages to say your top notch Fisher x202b or your Eico? No doubt the Leben is astonishingly good, but what is it made of, what sets it apart, and what is it giving you soundwise that say a modern $2500 Italian amp can't? And more pertinent, what's it doing that the tube gear you already own isn't doing?
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Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Interesting that you mentioned the $2500 Italian amp. My favorite tube amp is Mastersound. If I had 3k and was in the market for a tube integrated the Mastersound Due Venti or Due Trenta would probably be my choice. It would take a hell of a great amp to beat them...maybe the Leben is that amp
. I home demoed the Due Venti with my DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 8's and was astonished. The dealer wanted to give me a taste of the good life. It was the best sound I've ever heard in my home.Interesting that you mentioned the $2500 Italian amp. My favorite tube amp is Mastersound. If I had 3k and was in the market for a tube integrated the Mastersound Due Venti or Due Trenta would probably be my choice. It would take a hell of a great amp to beat them...maybe the Leben is that amp
Very nice, Art. Never heard of that one but I'll have to add it to my list of future look-sees. It's not feasible for me to audition anything like we're talking about, so wondering how an amp like Leben, at that price compares to John's other tube gear or new tube amps like say Unison or the Mastersound that cost a lot less.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
I owned a Unison Hybrid and it was pretty nice. It was replaced by a Sonneteer. I know I know, and now I have an NAD...what happened, don't ask. I'm still enjoying my music that's what's important.
Another brand that interests me is Viva.
http://www.vivaaudio.com/philosophy.htm
Heard nothing but good things about them. If all Italian amps were like the Mastersound, Leben and Shindo would be living on their looks alone
. Honestly, never heard Leben or Shindo but I have heard several Mastersound amps and couldn't be more impressed.PS, I also had a Mira 3 and Apollo (followed by a Saturn) and I enjoy my NAD combo as well as the Mira 3/Apollo combo. Both are very musical:thmbsp:.
writethis
Well-Known Member
John, sorry you couldn't join us in St Louis this weekend. Sheltie Dave was gracious enough to set up an appointment at St Louis Stereo on Saturday morning, and I got to hear both Harbeth and Leben for the first time. Also a pair of Totem Sttaf's, which sounded very nice paired with my Van Alstine Super 70i (formerly a Dynaco ST70). None of the Harbeths sounded good with my amp, but that doesn't make me love them any less. Between switching up sources, amps, pre's and speakers, it was a lot to take in, and I didn't directly compare the two Leben integrateds on anything except the Harbeth SHL5's. On those particular speakers, the magic synergy was with the big Leben. In comparison, the 300 didn't fare well. I think it may have largely been a matter of not enough watts. In the context of guitar amps, I am wedded for life to the sound of EL84s, but this was my first exposure to them in a hifi application. I need to audition more stuff, that is clear. (explanation for those who don't know me, my frame of reference until recently has been recording studios, not audiophile gear).
But I do love the bigger Harbeths, that much is clear. Tried the little P3's for about 5 minutes...just not enough bottom to make sense in my life, and my time on Saturday was very limited, so I moved on quickly.
So now I get where you're coming from with your Harbeth love. I'm assuming the C7's are easier to drive than the SHL5's, and that you'll have lots of fun when you get the new amp in.
Interesting side note, which probably belongs in Thinking Out Loud...when Charlie at St Louis Stereo first hooked up the SHL5's, I immediately hated the top end, which to my ear was surprisingly strident. Charlie agreed, but moved quickly behind the left speaker. Turns out they'd just replaced the stock bi-wire jumpers with some fancy-schmancy Japanese cables made for this purpose...he put the stock jumpers back in, powered the Leben back up and I quickly fell in love. I don't have a lot of experience with hi-end interconnects, though I do know different wire can sound different. But in this case, simply changing out jumpers took a pair of relatively expensive speakers that I didn't like at all into the realm of "best hifi I've ever heard."
Thanks again to Sheltie Dave, who also provided me with my first exposure to K horns And SET amps. All in all, a big morning for gaining perspective and enjoying gorgeous, involving sound.
But I do love the bigger Harbeths, that much is clear. Tried the little P3's for about 5 minutes...just not enough bottom to make sense in my life, and my time on Saturday was very limited, so I moved on quickly.
So now I get where you're coming from with your Harbeth love. I'm assuming the C7's are easier to drive than the SHL5's, and that you'll have lots of fun when you get the new amp in.
Interesting side note, which probably belongs in Thinking Out Loud...when Charlie at St Louis Stereo first hooked up the SHL5's, I immediately hated the top end, which to my ear was surprisingly strident. Charlie agreed, but moved quickly behind the left speaker. Turns out they'd just replaced the stock bi-wire jumpers with some fancy-schmancy Japanese cables made for this purpose...he put the stock jumpers back in, powered the Leben back up and I quickly fell in love. I don't have a lot of experience with hi-end interconnects, though I do know different wire can sound different. But in this case, simply changing out jumpers took a pair of relatively expensive speakers that I didn't like at all into the realm of "best hifi I've ever heard."
Thanks again to Sheltie Dave, who also provided me with my first exposure to K horns And SET amps. All in all, a big morning for gaining perspective and enjoying gorgeous, involving sound.
Thanks for writing out your experience there. I wish I could have gone. Its interesting how different rooms and associated gear can affect things. My Harbeth C7s sound really nice on a modified Stereo 70 and a lower powered EL-84 Eico. The Cabasses don't sound as good with the Eico, but they're more efficient. I'm just going to cross my fingers until I can make the comparison at home.
As for the jumpers...yeah, I've heard little stuff like that ruin everything, or make a change. I have a pair of silver cables from Nordost...they either make everything nice and balanced, or tip it over the edge into sounding too bright. In fact, with the Cabasse speakers I had, they were a part of them sounding too etched, even though the cable was between the pre and the amp. A copper cabled calmed things down. But those same cables work well with the Harbeths, with the same amplification. I guess this is part of the fun of the hobby, right? Ha ha.
writethis
Well-Known Member
Yep.
Your silver wire/copper wire anecdote is just one more example of how all those little things can exert huge influence on the overall sound. For that matter, I also learned this weekend what a huge difference different stands make. Charlie demonstrated this point by switching out stands while the C7's were hooked up. We went from heavy four-legged metal stands to plexiglass bases on chrome legs that reminded me of abutterfly chairs. Midrange and (especially) low end changed significantly. Really almost sounded like two different pairs of speakers. Makes me wonder how many people flip gear that might have been perfect for them simply because they never got all the little details properly sorted.
I'll look forward to hearing how the C7's and EL-84-based Leben do together in your room. Being saddled with what I've come to refer to as the curse of optimism, i assume it'll be really nice. But then, when you regard this sort of experimentation as an integral part of the hobby, at least it won't be a major tragedy if you don't love it (especially since you're buying used).
Keep us posted John.
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Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
The C7 isn't easier to drive than the SHL5 but neither are difficult to drive. There is a difference between being inefficient and difficult to drive. All Harbeth speakers present an easy load to the amplifier. You simply have to bring enough power for their somewhat inefficient design.
The P3's are just a tad bass shy in my living room but in my dedicated room (9x10) they have plenty of bass. The gentle roll off from 75hz to 35hz gives the impression of good low frequency extension and weight.
The P3's are just a tad bass shy in my living room but in my dedicated room (9x10) they have plenty of bass. The gentle roll off from 75hz to 35hz gives the impression of good low frequency extension and weight.
hibuckhobby
Well-Known Member
Secondly only to getting something 'new' yourself is the pleasure of
vicariously enjoying the purchases of a friend. (Not to mention that
it's significantly less stressful)
vicariously enjoying the purchases of a friend. (Not to mention that
it's significantly less stressful)
That's what I enjoy the most about AK. I can't possibly hear everything out there (but I've tried...), and once you find the folks who roughly share your taste in gear it's like having extra ears out there. I just like hearing new stuff, so I'm not sure I'll ever be able to stop acquiring. It's not really about improving anymore, as it is about narrowing the focus.
Yep.
Your silver wire/copper wire anecdote is just one more example of how all those little things can exert huge influence on the overall sound. For that matter, I also learned this weekend what a huge difference different stands make. Charlie demonstrated this point by switching out stands while the C7's were hooked up. We went from heavy four-legged metal stands to plexiglass bases on chrome legs that reminded me of abutterfly chairs. Midrange and (especially) low end changed significantly. Really almost sounded like two different pairs of speakers. Makes me wonder how many people flip gear that might have been perfect for them simply because they never got all the little details properly sorted.
I'll look forward to hearing how the C7's and EL-84-based Leben do together in your room. Being saddled with what I've come to refer to as the curse of optimism, i assume it'll be really nice. But then, when you regard this sort of experimentation as an integral part of the hobby, at least it won't be a major tragedy if you don't love it (especially since you're buying used).
Keep us posted John.
Did you prefer the sound on those wire-base stands or the rigid heavy stands? I know exactly which wire-base ones you are talking about, as I was thinking of getting them for my Harbeths, or making a pair using Eames Eiffel-tower chair bases, which are similar in construction. The general consensus seems to be that these speakers like light/rigid stands. I'm using extremely heavy/dense Target 4-pillar stands and they're both too-tall, and I think, too heavy. But they were here. Alan Shaw says it doesn't matter (he uses plant stands), but users speak highly of the differences a lighter stand brings out.
I auditioned the P3s in a very large room and they didn't fare well, but I've heard almost identically sized Spendors in a small, treated room and know that it makes all the difference in speakers of their size. I'd love to hear them in an environment more suited to their size, but the local Harbeth dealer has the absolute worse listening room on the planet. Its just a giant open room with concrete floors. Nothing but Dali Helicons has ever sounded good there.
I've found the Harbeths to be incredibly easy to drive even with lower powered amps, including my little Sony Class-A job at 18wpc. That is actually kind of my go-to amp on them, when I'm not running tubes. The fisher SA-300 sounds the best, but that amp has some issues (not the amp in general, just the one I have).
sheltie dave
Addicted Member
John, the Skylan stands really allowed the Harbeths to sing clearly, the heavy stands less so. The switching of cables (to me) was a smaller change in the audio presentation, but I have many hours listening to modded KHorns with close to razor sharp clarity, so bright to medium bright isn't as noticeable a change.
It was fun putting so many combinations through their paces, as at a normal listening session you might hear one or two permutations.
It was fun putting so many combinations through their paces, as at a normal listening session you might hear one or two permutations.
Cadillac Kid
Addicted Member
I am using the Skylan stands with my SHL5's. The maker suggests filling the columns with kitty litter, but after some testing I went with play sand.
Thanks for the info. I really think that his winter I'm going to buy another pair of replica Eames molded Eiffel tower chairs, just to rob them of their bases, and then fabricating a simple platform for the speakers. The wire-base stands look a little high for my listening position (already a problem with my Target stands). These speakers change their character dramatically depending upon how high they are compared to your seated position.
The Foundation stands (as seen here):
http://www.foundationstands.com/index.html
...are also very nice and work well. The Compact 7s at Venice Audio in California had these. That's another option I might pursue.
Art K.
The Voodoo You Do!
Actually there was a recent thread over at HUG where Alan admits that Skylan stands do make a positive difference. I had metal stands that were roughly the same shape as the Skylan stands that I'm using and the difference that the Skylans made is pretty phenomenal. Give Noel a call, John. He'll hook ya up!