thedelihaus
Nocturnal transmissions
It has adjustable azimuth and is badged Sumiko- that is all I recall. I think it's just one set of pins- not 100% sure.
Let's mod a PL-41 !
- Thread starter Naptown Rob
- Start date
It has adjustable azimuth and is badged Sumiko- that is all I recall. I think it's just one set of pins- not 100% sure.
Well...
I just played the Opus 3 Test Record One "Depth of Image"
All I can say is Gourd Dammm!
The f-ing Pioneer DOES NOT SUCK with the Benz...in fact, the depth of the Pioneer/Benz combo in comparison to the Linn/X-5MC combo is, well.....
Let's put it this way, those of us with PL-41's are lucky, lucky fellows indeed...
In other words, DO NOT SELL THIS OLD BEAST AND IT'S ARM SHORT.
I daresay that if Ivor had trundled into a shop when he was schlepping his original Linn around the UK and this machine was playing there....well, history might be a bit different...
At least these are my first impressions...to get a more accurate comparison I am going to stick the X-3MC on it as that ought to be a bit more fair to the Linn with it's cartridge...
But, this dang Benz just sounds so good that it once again has reminded me that there is really quite a difference between cartridges that are merely good, and those that start to be truly excellent...
The $500 list Ortofon is a decent cartridge...the Benz is a superb one, even on an old war horse like the PL-41...
Blows my mind....
But as my girlfriend reminds me, that's a very small gust necessary to blow what's left of my mind...
.
I just played the Opus 3 Test Record One "Depth of Image"
All I can say is Gourd Dammm!
The f-ing Pioneer DOES NOT SUCK with the Benz...in fact, the depth of the Pioneer/Benz combo in comparison to the Linn/X-5MC combo is, well.....
Let's put it this way, those of us with PL-41's are lucky, lucky fellows indeed...
In other words, DO NOT SELL THIS OLD BEAST AND IT'S ARM SHORT.
I daresay that if Ivor had trundled into a shop when he was schlepping his original Linn around the UK and this machine was playing there....well, history might be a bit different...
At least these are my first impressions...to get a more accurate comparison I am going to stick the X-3MC on it as that ought to be a bit more fair to the Linn with it's cartridge...
But, this dang Benz just sounds so good that it once again has reminded me that there is really quite a difference between cartridges that are merely good, and those that start to be truly excellent...
The $500 list Ortofon is a decent cartridge...the Benz is a superb one, even on an old war horse like the PL-41...
Blows my mind....
But as my girlfriend reminds me, that's a very small gust necessary to blow what's left of my mind...
.
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OK, just installed the X-3MC on the PL-41, and yes, it is more like what I get from the Linn...
To recap the mods I have done to the PL-41:
1. Polished the center bearing shaft up to 12,000 grit MicroMesh and installed the new Delrin thrust pad.
2. Put a 1/8" thick piece of black craft foam into the center of the platter.
3. Made some clips out of an old tube socket and used that to attach thin, silver plated, Teflon insulated wire to the tonearm's output connector...these then attach to a pair of cheap ass "gold plated" RCA jacks pirated from some other piece of gear...
4. Wireworld Equinox V interconnects
5. Tight heatshrink tubing on tonearm, tonearm bearings adjusted for minimal play.
The Sondek:
1. Tuned, springs, grommets, belt
2. Ringmat
3. Graham Silver IC-70 arm lead
4. 1/2" Baltic Birch baseplate
5. Headshell wires made from Cardas 33 ga wire, Cardas Clips, and Cardas QE Solder
That's as much as I can remember as far as tweaks or anything, so this has been quite entertaining...
Now, the question, cheap turntable with expensive cartridge or expensive table with cheap cartridge?
To some around here the $500 Ortofon X-5MC is an expensive cartridge and I do not dispute that...to them the Benz is stratospherically priced....then again, a Linn can be, too...
I also own a Denon DL-103S, the Shibata stylus version, a Linn Asak, and dozens of moving magnet and moving iron cartridges...I set up tables for folks and I get to play with and hear cartridges that cost more than a decent used car, and all I can say is that you get what you pay for! In my experience, the least costly entry level high end cartridge that I have heard is the Benz Ace.
Nothing I have heard from any manufacturer that costs below $750 USD or so, is really high end...all you have to do to figure this out is to actually spend some time with a truly great cartridge to find that out...it's really hard to describe, but once you hear it, it's one of those "oh yeah, now I know what you mean!" moments...
That doesn't mean that there aren't cartridges out there that give good value for the money, that sound superb, musical, and entertaining, but in direct comparison miss just that last "nth" degree that separates the merely good from the truly excellent....
This is forcibly brought home to me EVERY SINGLE TIME I install this H2O on something...yes, it is the best cartridge I own by a large margin, and it proves that each and every time I would install it on my Linn...and now, on the Pioneer...
The X-3MC in comparison, sounds great, but it lacks that extra bit of depth, of impact, of delineation, of imaging, of timbre, of all the things that the Ortofon does better than lesser cartridges the Benz does, in spades, to the Ortofon...
The reason I do not always run the Benz is that I will probably never again be able to afford such a cartridge...if I ruin it, then that will be all she wrote...I just don't ever want that to happen!!!
I do wish I had a Ortofon Rondo Bronze or better to compare, but the X-5MC is the best HOMC that Ortofon currently makes and is no chunk of chopped liver, I really like it...it's just that I can understand clearly how much more can be bought with more money...the X-3MC was just a step behind, but it too, has an advanced stylus profile and really gets into the groove well...
That the PL-41 can support these cartridges so well is absolutely flabbergasting to me....
About the only thing left that I think need to do to the PL-41 is to talc the belt, when I take my stethoscope to the plinth I can hear the belt...a new, heavy plinth would also be good...EAR bushings for the motor would probably be an upgrade if I could find the right ones...rewiring the tonearm with one run of high quality wire from headshell socket to RCA plugs is definitely something I will do in the future...
And the once-upon-a-time lack of a black background is gone...the bearing work really took care of that!
Dang it...I really wanted this to be quite inferior to the Linn...
Guess I got surprised...
So, cheap turntable with expensive cartridge or expensive table with cheap cartridge?
Yes...if the cheap turntable is as good as the PL-41.
.
To recap the mods I have done to the PL-41:
1. Polished the center bearing shaft up to 12,000 grit MicroMesh and installed the new Delrin thrust pad.
2. Put a 1/8" thick piece of black craft foam into the center of the platter.
3. Made some clips out of an old tube socket and used that to attach thin, silver plated, Teflon insulated wire to the tonearm's output connector...these then attach to a pair of cheap ass "gold plated" RCA jacks pirated from some other piece of gear...
4. Wireworld Equinox V interconnects
5. Tight heatshrink tubing on tonearm, tonearm bearings adjusted for minimal play.
The Sondek:
1. Tuned, springs, grommets, belt
2. Ringmat
3. Graham Silver IC-70 arm lead
4. 1/2" Baltic Birch baseplate
5. Headshell wires made from Cardas 33 ga wire, Cardas Clips, and Cardas QE Solder
That's as much as I can remember as far as tweaks or anything, so this has been quite entertaining...
Now, the question, cheap turntable with expensive cartridge or expensive table with cheap cartridge?
To some around here the $500 Ortofon X-5MC is an expensive cartridge and I do not dispute that...to them the Benz is stratospherically priced....then again, a Linn can be, too...
I also own a Denon DL-103S, the Shibata stylus version, a Linn Asak, and dozens of moving magnet and moving iron cartridges...I set up tables for folks and I get to play with and hear cartridges that cost more than a decent used car, and all I can say is that you get what you pay for! In my experience, the least costly entry level high end cartridge that I have heard is the Benz Ace.
Nothing I have heard from any manufacturer that costs below $750 USD or so, is really high end...all you have to do to figure this out is to actually spend some time with a truly great cartridge to find that out...it's really hard to describe, but once you hear it, it's one of those "oh yeah, now I know what you mean!" moments...
That doesn't mean that there aren't cartridges out there that give good value for the money, that sound superb, musical, and entertaining, but in direct comparison miss just that last "nth" degree that separates the merely good from the truly excellent....
This is forcibly brought home to me EVERY SINGLE TIME I install this H2O on something...yes, it is the best cartridge I own by a large margin, and it proves that each and every time I would install it on my Linn...and now, on the Pioneer...
The X-3MC in comparison, sounds great, but it lacks that extra bit of depth, of impact, of delineation, of imaging, of timbre, of all the things that the Ortofon does better than lesser cartridges the Benz does, in spades, to the Ortofon...
The reason I do not always run the Benz is that I will probably never again be able to afford such a cartridge...if I ruin it, then that will be all she wrote...I just don't ever want that to happen!!!
I do wish I had a Ortofon Rondo Bronze or better to compare, but the X-5MC is the best HOMC that Ortofon currently makes and is no chunk of chopped liver, I really like it...it's just that I can understand clearly how much more can be bought with more money...the X-3MC was just a step behind, but it too, has an advanced stylus profile and really gets into the groove well...
That the PL-41 can support these cartridges so well is absolutely flabbergasting to me....
About the only thing left that I think need to do to the PL-41 is to talc the belt, when I take my stethoscope to the plinth I can hear the belt...a new, heavy plinth would also be good...EAR bushings for the motor would probably be an upgrade if I could find the right ones...rewiring the tonearm with one run of high quality wire from headshell socket to RCA plugs is definitely something I will do in the future...
And the once-upon-a-time lack of a black background is gone...the bearing work really took care of that!
Dang it...I really wanted this to be quite inferior to the Linn...
Guess I got surprised...
So, cheap turntable with expensive cartridge or expensive table with cheap cartridge?
Yes...if the cheap turntable is as good as the PL-41.
.
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MWalt
Super Member
That is great news. I always thought the PL-41 was way under rated but not to the extent that it could hang with a Linn. I think I am going to pull my bearing and repolish it the way you did; you were way more thorough. Where do you buy micromesh? I wonder how that Benz would sound on my modded PL-41 :scratch2:
I bought the MicroMesh at Woodcraft....the stuff lasts an incredibly long time, and there are grits even finer than what I have...
I have no doubt that the Benz, especially a newer model than my several year old example, would perform brilliantly...in fact, the Ace with it's new stylus profile may perform in a very similar manner, if not a bit better...and save a bunch of bucks...
I have been a huge Benz fan since my first Glider over a decade ago...in fact, I bought it before I had my first part-time job with an audio retailer and had to pay the street price, not the dealer cost...but, it opened my ears to truly great cartridges....the Benz cartridges are warm, they have the kind of warmth that the Grado lovers claim their cartridges have, but in direct comparison the Benz has a level of resolution that the Grados just truncate...an inner light, if you will, that the Grados up to the Master that I have heard, just didn't capture...and all this without being harsh, or etched, or any of the negative things that all too many people claim moving coil cartridges exhibit...and, some of the MC's that I have had in the past have been that way...but none of them have been examples from Benz...the new "S" models from Benz are absolutely my favorites in their price range...this does not mean that there aren't other carts that I like, like Lyras, but they are a different animal, less warmth, more "truth" if you will...the Shelters are great, too...the Swiss manufactured Benz models are among the truly great cartridges available to audiophiles today, and all it takes is living with one for a short while to see, rather hear, what the differences are from the merely good sounding and OK performing cartridges and something aimed at the high end...
It's just a shame that it is so hard for folks in this day and age to audition examples of really good cartridges in comparison to the more pedestrian offerings that seem so prevalent...there would be a whole new level of understanding just how good analog and well pressed LP's can be...
I wish I owned stock in Benz Micro for all the promotion I do of them! It's just hard not to as they seem to work so well for so many people. Yes, there may be better, and yes, I have heard better...but still, the Benz offerings, at least the Swiss ones, aren't anything to sneeze at...
.
I have been playing the PL-41 more today...so after playing it for a while I took my trusty stethoscope to it and heard a small ticking sound, along with just the sound of a machine running...it's kind of hard to describe, but I attribute that to the unpowdered belt making noise as it travels...pulled off the motor cover, and noticed that the ticking occurred when there was a smudge on the belt passing over the pulley...so, I pulled the belt off and washed it...I found a tiny little bit of schmutz on the belt and started scrubbing it a bit more...took some red Scotchbrite to it, yet still there was a small perturbation in the surface of the belt...so I started cleaning it with MG Chemicals Rubber Renew..still there was the small area that could have been where the belt had one time sit on a pulley and not moved for quite a while...
So, I went through my belt stash and found one that was slightly smaller in diameter and slightly smaller in width...I scrubbed it with soap and water and the Scotchbrite, and cleaned it with the Rubber Renew...the belt' surface felt perfect, so I douched it well with talcum powder, installed it, let it turn a few revolutions and once again listened with the stethoscope...
Silence!
Total silence! On both the plinth and the top plate! This was a big change from just a few moments before! None of the running noises I heard before were there...so, this helped prove to me that the talc lets the belt grab and release the platter without any kind of stiction that causes noise..it worked!
Getting rid of a tiny hard spot in the belt by replacing the belt got rid of the ticking sound, too...
There's just no noise now even though this belt is a bit more snug than the last one...maybe there's a belt made from 1/4" recoding tape in its' future...strobing it also proved the speed to be spot on, thank goodness!
Please note, if you talc a belt make sure the powder you use is 100% pure talc and does not have any baking soda in it!!! Clubman Talc is real talc so that's what I always use...the baking soda will screw up aluminum, is hygroscopic, and just does not work right in comparison to the real thing...
Just more observations on my old beast.
.
So, I went through my belt stash and found one that was slightly smaller in diameter and slightly smaller in width...I scrubbed it with soap and water and the Scotchbrite, and cleaned it with the Rubber Renew...the belt' surface felt perfect, so I douched it well with talcum powder, installed it, let it turn a few revolutions and once again listened with the stethoscope...
Silence!
Total silence! On both the plinth and the top plate! This was a big change from just a few moments before! None of the running noises I heard before were there...so, this helped prove to me that the talc lets the belt grab and release the platter without any kind of stiction that causes noise..it worked!
Getting rid of a tiny hard spot in the belt by replacing the belt got rid of the ticking sound, too...
There's just no noise now even though this belt is a bit more snug than the last one...maybe there's a belt made from 1/4" recoding tape in its' future...strobing it also proved the speed to be spot on, thank goodness!
Please note, if you talc a belt make sure the powder you use is 100% pure talc and does not have any baking soda in it!!! Clubman Talc is real talc so that's what I always use...the baking soda will screw up aluminum, is hygroscopic, and just does not work right in comparison to the real thing...
Just more observations on my old beast.
.
MWalt
Super Member
I use clubman talc as well. How do the rubber grommets that hold the motor on look?
They look fine, no obvious aging, wear, or tearing, but it might not be a bad idea, now that I think about it, to take and clean them with the Rubber Renew...maybe I will the next time I take it out of the system...but, I would really like to find something made out of the EAR material to replace them...same thing for the grommets on my Rek-O-Kut project, they are different, but I really like the EAR materials properties....
The PL-41 doesn't even sound too bad with a Grado Sonata playing the Narada album "Emerald" right now...I don't notice any of the "Grado Hum" either...
But heck, I tried it a little while ago with the cheapest of the cheap, the Audio Technica CN5625 that I painted the body with black wrinkle paint and epoxy glued the carbon fiber stylus assembly and the mount to the body...those are surprising cartridges for how cheap they are and how good they sound...they miss the last bit of detail and don't go quite as deep in the bass or as wide in imaging, but with those tweaks they are my favorite cheap cartridge...I've given a few of them away just for kicks and trading for other things of not too high a value :thmbsp:
MrIgotNomoney
Well-Known Member
Well
All this has got me going again, im going to re polish my spindle just because.
Im looking for a good shop that can mill off the ridge on the platter.
No luck so far but im looking.
A PL-41 against a Linn, wow! guys it looks as if were really on to something here.
All this has got me going again, im going to re polish my spindle just because.
Im looking for a good shop that can mill off the ridge on the platter.
No luck so far but im looking.
A PL-41 against a Linn, wow! guys it looks as if were really on to something here.
MWalt
Super Member
I have an extra platter that I considered trying that with. I am worried about balance of the platter. It would be nice to upgrade to a nicer mat with that ridge gone.
Rick, you used 90 weight as lube, correct. I think Bob and I both used Mobil 1 synthetic. What did the factory use?
MrIgotNomoney
Well-Known Member
Hello
I use Mobile 1, seems fine very smooth.
bob
I use Mobile 1, seems fine very smooth.
bob
No telling what Pioneer used back in those days...but looking at the owner's manual it seems they wanted you to use the same oil that they used for lubricating the motor to be used in the main bearing...that's fine, I guess, but since mine takes 3 minutes (without the belt on the motor pulley, of course) to spin down from approximately 60 RPM now using the Castrol Syntec gear lube I'm not too worried about friction....
I use 85/90W synthetic in most bronze bearings and have had no problems whatsoever, the EP additives that are in hypoid lube should also help guard against scrubbing on the thrust receiving side of the bronze bearing better than oils that do not have the same...but, synthetics are slippery, I'll give them that..the thicker lube may add a bit of damping, too, but it's all conjecture...
.
I use 85/90W synthetic in most bronze bearings and have had no problems whatsoever, the EP additives that are in hypoid lube should also help guard against scrubbing on the thrust receiving side of the bronze bearing better than oils that do not have the same...but, synthetics are slippery, I'll give them that..the thicker lube may add a bit of damping, too, but it's all conjecture...
.
Update on running the PL-41
I've been running the PL-41 for a few days now and have been enjoying it...but, there was a low level hum that was there whenever the cartridge was in contact with the record...thinking that I might be running a belt that was a bit too tight, I subbed in a slightly longer belt, thinking that perhaps it was just motor noise/vibration being transmitted through a too-tight belt to the platter...nope, that wasn't it...
So, I took the Pioneer out of the system this afternoon and gave it a quick look-over underneath the plinth and research what it used for a grounding scheme....
I noticed first off that the motor had a small ground lug/eyelet type thing under one of the bolts that holds the motor together...Then, there is a ground wire that connects the motor sub assembly plate to a grounding point on the main chassis...the tonearm is grounded via one of the five pins in it's base to a point on the underside of the chassis right next to the arm and that is what the external ground wire is connected to.....
I thought that maybe I could do a better job of grounding things and so I grabbed a couple of eyelets, some really, really, really old Belden cloth covered solid tinned copper wire (but it is in brand new condition and a dream to work with) and soldered a wire to the ground lug on the motor to the ground point on the main chassis...then, I made a new run that tied that ground point over to the ground point by where the arm is grounded and the external grounding wire....buttoned it back together, and reinserted the table back into the system...
Result?
Noise and hum are now almost totally gone...much, much better than it was before...
SWMBO came home and started bitching about me working on something on the dining room table while I was doing this, so I tuned her blabber out and went about my business, but didn't get a chance to photo what I did, I'll do that probably tomorrow....
Oh yeah, and this is with my Grado Sonata...but the Ortofon X-3MC and Benz H2O were also picking up this noise....
.
I've been running the PL-41 for a few days now and have been enjoying it...but, there was a low level hum that was there whenever the cartridge was in contact with the record...thinking that I might be running a belt that was a bit too tight, I subbed in a slightly longer belt, thinking that perhaps it was just motor noise/vibration being transmitted through a too-tight belt to the platter...nope, that wasn't it...
So, I took the Pioneer out of the system this afternoon and gave it a quick look-over underneath the plinth and research what it used for a grounding scheme....
I noticed first off that the motor had a small ground lug/eyelet type thing under one of the bolts that holds the motor together...Then, there is a ground wire that connects the motor sub assembly plate to a grounding point on the main chassis...the tonearm is grounded via one of the five pins in it's base to a point on the underside of the chassis right next to the arm and that is what the external ground wire is connected to.....
I thought that maybe I could do a better job of grounding things and so I grabbed a couple of eyelets, some really, really, really old Belden cloth covered solid tinned copper wire (but it is in brand new condition and a dream to work with) and soldered a wire to the ground lug on the motor to the ground point on the main chassis...then, I made a new run that tied that ground point over to the ground point by where the arm is grounded and the external grounding wire....buttoned it back together, and reinserted the table back into the system...
Result?
Noise and hum are now almost totally gone...much, much better than it was before...
SWMBO came home and started bitching about me working on something on the dining room table while I was doing this, so I tuned her blabber out and went about my business, but didn't get a chance to photo what I did, I'll do that probably tomorrow....
Oh yeah, and this is with my Grado Sonata...but the Ortofon X-3MC and Benz H2O were also picking up this noise....
.
Still playing the PL-41 and another cartridge photo
I've kept the PL-41 in the system for a while now, so I decided to mount up and align another cartridge, one of my favorites, and one that is older than a lot of folks here on AK...
It sounds pretty darn amazing, listening to an Angel Master Series DMM pressing of Rodrigo's "Concierto de Aranjuez" with Angel Romero and the London Symphony Orchestra....
Absolutely wonderful...
To think that one of the very first stereophonic phono cartridges can sound this good blows my mind...better than my Sonata by a long shot....
Oh well, onward and upward!
I've kept the PL-41 in the system for a while now, so I decided to mount up and align another cartridge, one of my favorites, and one that is older than a lot of folks here on AK...
It sounds pretty darn amazing, listening to an Angel Master Series DMM pressing of Rodrigo's "Concierto de Aranjuez" with Angel Romero and the London Symphony Orchestra....
Absolutely wonderful...
To think that one of the very first stereophonic phono cartridges can sound this good blows my mind...better than my Sonata by a long shot....
Oh well, onward and upward!