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Line conditioners ?

I use one of those old, big APC units with the big batteries in it that was used originally for computer surge protection, brownouts and power interuptions. I have another system with no surge or power conditioning. I cannot tell the difference between the two systems. I seem to have no issues that require power conditioning.
 
There are line conditioners without batteries. I have both. My stereo is hooked to a line conditioner only. My PC and TV with another PC are hooked up to battery backups with line conditioners.
 
To xargos:
Please specify some of the "well made items that have less than stellar power sections".
In what manner were they "less than stellar"? What components were at fault?
Has it occurred to you that "items that have less than stellar power sections" by definition are NOT "well made"?
 
To Tedrick:
Why would I "try" a device that I perceive no need for? The many audio systems I have had over the years have performed as I desired and expected. I see/hear no reason to waste my time, and that of the vendors, when my systems exhibit no line related shortcomings.
 
Any competently designed audio gear will not benefit by hooking it to a power conditioner.

Power conditioners were "created" to fill a "need" that does not exist. Their true purpose is solely to put money in the pockets of the charlatans that manufacture and sell them. Yet another audio fallacy foisted on the gullible audiophile.

As you have no experience with power conditioners, these statements are pure speculation.

That said, I have power conditioners on all three of my audio systems and my electric guitar rig. I did not install them because I have inferior gear. I installed them because I don't have the cleanest or most stable power in my 55 year old home, and it was cheaper than having my whole house re-wired, although I do have a dedicated 12g. 20 Amp circuit for my H/T system.

They filter stray EMI/RFI and reduce incoming AC noise, providing a "blacker" background for both audio and video. An added benefit is surge protection.

YMMV.:D
 
My personal experiences are with power conditioners with regulated power. They appear to have good results with digital components… Like CD & DVD players and HD TVs… I have three friends who use a Power Company power supply and it does make a difference in the picture quality and digital sound... I don’t personally use one because I have 10ga dedicated wiring running to all my gear.

One of my friends calibrates his own TV using a calibration DVD… We did this with and without the power company and you could notices the improvements using the DVD as a comparison tool…

The main improvement was the blacks and background…
 
Some may benefit from power conditioners for poor electrical condtions, but one comment I often see is the "blacker background" thing. I have difficulty understanding that.

It would seem to me that if one can't hear any residual noise of your system over the ambient noise floor of the room, that one wouldn't be able to hear something even less than what you already don't hear. :scratch2: :dunno:

I'm not trying to "start" anything, I just don't get it unless one has a bad problem with really loud hiss or what ever that is audible over the basic noise floor of your room.
 
To urizon:
Good points. I have to admit that there are circumstances, such as yours, where one of those devices could be helpful, but I think in most cases, they are totally superfluous and unnecessary. And, they are overpriced. That is why I suggest putting money into better speakers where the benefit is not likely to be a product of self delusion and wishful thinking. To each his own, right or wrong. By the way, my home is 50 years old too, but there are no apparent problems with the wiring.
 
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I have difficulty understanding that.

I'm not an electrical engineer, so I have a hard time grasping the technicalities of power conditioning/regulation. The last unit I purchased was an ExactPower EDPS from BrianB at Venus HiFi. ExactPower's site has a wealth of information and an interesting white paper on grounding issues.

To quote from their site:

"Unwanted AC line noise occurs in two forms: common-mode and differential mode. Common-mode noise appears simultaneously on both the line and neutral conductors with respect to ground. RFI from radio stations, for example, is a form of common-mode noise. Differential mode noise occurs between the line and neutral AC conductors and is in series (that is, rides on top of) the desired 50/60 Hz waveform. Computer power supplies, monitors, printers, and lighting dimmers are typical examples of the kind of appliances that can introduce DM noise into your household wiring.

Eliminating the noise and RFI from your AC line means that your equipment will not have to amplify and process RFI along with the audio and video signals."

http://www.exactpower.com/
 
To xargos:
Please specify some of the "well made items that have less than stellar power sections".
In what manner were they "less than stellar"? What components were at fault?
Has it occurred to you that "items that have less than stellar power sections" by definition are NOT "well made"?

It really seems that you are just trying to find reason to disagree with people on this.

Any piece of equipment can be looked at as a combination of sections, and having one section, such as the power section, that isn't as well made as the rest doesn't make the whole thing poorly made. There are decent receivers out there, including Onkyo ones, as well as things like some of the Tripath amplifiers. If given clean power, there is a lower noise floor.

To urizon:
Good points. I have to admit that there are circumstances, such as yours, where one of those devices could be helpful, but I think in most cases, they are totally superfluous and unnecessary. And, they are overpriced. That is why I suggest putting money into better speakers where the benefit is not likely to be a product of self delusion and wishful thinking. To each his own, right or wrong. By the way, my home is 50 years old too, but there are no apparent problems with the wiring.

Yes, there are circumstances where they can be useful, and it sounds like you have never been in one to learn that. It isn't self delusion or wishful thinking when you have a lower noise level. You can actually measure that with test equipment.

Even in a brand new home you can have power issues because we are all at the mercy of electricity providers. Until you have had interference filled power lines with voltages running from 105-120 volts like I have, you might not see the difference.
 
Some may benefit from power conditioners for poor electrical condtions, but one comment I often see is the "blacker background" thing. I have difficulty understanding that.

It would seem to me that if one can't hear any residual noise of your system over the ambient noise floor of the room, that one wouldn't be able to hear something even less than what you already don't hear. :scratch2: :dunno:

I'm not trying to "start" anything, I just don't get it unless one has a bad problem with really loud hiss or what ever that is audible over the basic noise floor of your room.

If you put your ear to a "silent" speaker and can hear more noise without a filter than with it, you are hearing something that could potentially influence the sound. It might not make a huge difference in all cases, but why not try to start with the best baseline to work from?

"Blacker background" can also be true of video - at least in the case of analog video. Dealing with composite video sources (VHS, Laserdisc, etc...) I have found that enough RF interference on the power line seems to create minor interference patterns.
 
Some may benefit from power conditioners for poor electrical condtions, but one comment I often see is the "blacker background" thing. I have difficulty understanding that.

It would seem to me that if one can't hear any residual noise of your system over the ambient noise floor of the room, that one wouldn't be able to hear something even less than what you already don't hear. :scratch2: :dunno:

I'm not trying to "start" anything, I just don't get it unless one has a bad problem with really loud hiss or what ever that is audible over the basic noise floor of your room.

You raise an interesting point. I'd like to respond to it. Please understand I have no axe to grind in this discussion as I do not own a conditioner and don't know if they work or not. I can tell you I am a skeptic and don't believe in expensive wires, interconnects, wall sockets, fuses or any of the other "audiophile" gadgetry that separates us from our money.

All audio equipment makes its own noise. It has to because heat (however much or little) is generated in the circuitry and then is amplified by the stages that follow it. Another source of noise comes from stray signals coming from the power supply. Some circuitry rejects that noise better then other circuits do, but some gets through. Thus if there is noise on the power input, and the Power Supply cannot filter it out and the circuit cannot reject it, it will find its way into the output.

Now the question is can you as a listener hear it? I really don't know the answer but I do remember incidents while I was out walking in traffic in NYC during rush hour. In all the noise of the cars going by my attention would be caught by a silence going by. I would turn and see a Bentley or Rolls Royce gliding by emitting less noise then any of the surrounding cars.

Is this a similar situation - I don't really know, but it is a situation of a quiet spot in the midst of noise that I personally noticed. Perhaps it is significant.
 
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OK, lets get our technologies in order. A surge protector is not a power conditioner. A power conditioner is a device that takes fluctuating and dirty power and outputs clean stable power. This is usually done by charging a large battery and inverting the DC to sine wave AC. Here are the specs for a typical commercial power conditioner:

* Voltage Regulation: +/- 3%
* Load Regulation: Typically better than +/- 3%
* Overload Capability: 125% for 10 min
* Surge Capability: 150% of rated output
* Input Operating Range: +10 to -40% (typical)
* Input Current THD: < 5%
* K-Factor: 30 or better
* Operating Temperature: 0°C to 40°C
* Common Mode Noise Attenuation: 120dB
* Transverse Mode (Line) Noise Attenuation: 70dB
* Spike Attenuation: 3000:1
* Crest Factor: 3.5:1

I have little or no experience using any power conditioning products for A/V. However, I've been employed in the industrial UPS field for 25 plus years as a designer, tech, field engineer and training instructor. So I'll offer some thoughts based on my non audio experiences.

There are line regulators that can maintain a constant voltage over a wide range input. The most common type is a ferroresonant transformer (ferro) and it is a passive device. These offer excellent isolation from surges and transients. Another type is referred to as a magnetic amp or magamp and has little in common with Bob Carver's concept. These use active circuitry to maintain voltage. Neither the ferro or magamp employ an inverter. The technology for a ferro is at least 75 years old.

There are inverters available and when coupled with a battery become a UPS. The better inverters at the low power requiremetns of A/V use pulse width modulation techniques to construct a good sine wave. They can be affected by the non linear power supplies found in most equipment resulting in distorted waveforms that could increase hum and buzz. Most UPS's sold at big box stores etc are offline types that only switch to the inverter when power fails or goes out of spec. The 12 volt DC inverters intended for camping put out a "modified sine wave" which looks more like a square wave. These work great for small TV's at tailgate parties but they're not for use in A/V.

The specs from the inverter at the top of the page indicate that it is a power factor corrected (PFC) inverter with input current THD < 5% and should be able to tolerate nonlinear loads with a crest factor up to 3.5:1. What this means is that it doesn't chop up the incoming line and won't flat top the waveform under heavy load. This one seems to me to be better than most, based on specs, and is likely expensive.

The one spec none of the manufacturers like to print is transient response which I think is as important as anything. Transient response is the deviation in output voltage due to changes in input voltage and/or load hits. I don't recall seeing any scope images of the output voltage from any of the manufacturers. Even if they did supply them I'd be skeptical of the test conditions.

From a reliability standpoint you can't beat the ferroresonat xfmr due to it's simplicity. If I was going to use anything it would probably be a ferro. I use $100 offline UPS's on each of the computers in the house and they work fine for that application. FWIW my house is fed by underground distribution to the stepdown transformer about 75 feet from my back door. Line voltage runs about 124. The switchyard is about 500 yards away.

For those people who are using some kind of line conditioning, I'd like to see oscilloscope waveforms of input and output voltages under real load. CATUION: This type of testing is not for the amateur using a scope for the first time. Grounded scope probes connected to line voltages produce burnt hands, loss of vision, ringing in the ears, electrical shock and equipment damage. A bruised ego is very possible as the scope waveforms may be disappointing.
 
To D3imlay:
You didn't mention the shortcomings of the ferroresonant (Sola) transformer. It draws high current , even when lightly or not loaded, runs hot, buzzes noisily, does not produce a clean sine wave, is heavy, bulky, and expensive. It's use would be inappropriate in a home audio system. It is simple and reliable, however.
 
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OK, lets get our technologies in order. A surge protector is not a power conditioner.

You are correct, however the terms "power conditioner" and "line conditioner" for devices that don't actually input dirty power and output clean, stable power, is used by audiophiles in the same way that "passive preamp" is used for a potentiometer in a box and no active circuitry. I think most people know their power is not really being "conditioned" or line level signal is not being "amplified", its just that the terms, inaccurate as they are, have become so commonplace that nothing you or I say is going to make the slightest difference.
 
My line conditioner helped me get rid of my athlete's foot. No more itching and burning for me!

dew.
 
My house is 50 years old and has some quirks to it, as do many homes of that era..my problem is when my wifey turns on the space heater (1500 watts), my monoblock amps p/s hum louder, when the heater is off, complete silence....any secrets here? would a line conditioner help this situation out, as it goes, wife stays thawed out, sound system sits cold. I get no other noise except with the space heater, no noise thru the speakers at all, just the p/supplies hum louder...
 
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