Line conditioners ?

[Aydin]

my problem is when my wifey turns on the space heater (1500 watts), my monoblock amps p/s hum louder, when the heater is off, complete silence....any secrets here? would a line conditioner help this situation out

Nope, not the sort of "conditioners" that most people are referring to here anyway. A 1:1 isolating transformer (followed by a "normal" noise filter/surge protector for the truely paranoid) might offer some degree of help there, but it's quite possibly the PS in your amps complaining due to the drop in line voltage caused by the high current drawn by your heater.

I'd start by making sure the heater's supply circuit is completely isolated from the circuit your system runs from before any of that, though. If that doesn't help, see if you can borrow an isolating transformer that can handle the full running current of your system, and run everything through that.

 

[2chanman]

To Hi Fiman:
Try running your sound system off of a long heavy duty extension plugged into a distant part of your house. The idea is to try to tap into the 2nd phase coming into your house which doesn't have the heater on it. If that works you could have an electrician modify your electrical panel to put the outlet your gear is presently plugged into on that phase so that you can get rid of the extension. I don't think an isolation transformer would help unless it has taps that will give you a slight voltage boost, and most of them don't have that feature. Also, one big enough to do the job is expensive. A power conditioner that recreates the AC line and outputs the correct line voltage when supplied with low line voltage might help, but it will use more power than it puts out and might blow the line fuse that is supplying the heater and the conditioner with your gear running on it. See if you can try a conditioner on trial with return privilege if it doesn't do the trick.

 

[visionviper]

Clean power is always good to have. Considering how relatively little a UPS or just a simple power conditioner (like the Monster MPHTS2000MKII) will run (about $150) I see little reason not to get one.

 

[whoaru99]

Clean power is always good to have. Considering how relatively little a UPS or just a simple power conditioner (like the Monster MPHTS2000MKII) will run (about $150) I see little reason not to get one.

Well....the point is that it's money spent on something that may be of no benefit depending on your circumstances.

Where I live I must have pretty clean power or I have gear that is generally immune to power quirks or both. So, line/power conditioner per se have no perceived benefit to me.

I do have surge suppression on a few things, but most of my gear isn't even on a surge suppressor.

In most cases it's not going to hurt anything, although some report negative impact, but to say it's a must-have or "just because", creates a lot of sales.

 

[2chanman]

Well said! I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[visionviper]

Well....the point is that it's money spent on something that may be of no benefit depending on your circumstances.

Where I live I must have pretty clean power or I have gear that is generally immune to power quirks or both. So, line/power conditioner per se have no perceived benefit to me.

It's good that you get clean power, but there are no guarantees it will stay this way. I figure if I am spending a a lot of money on a good audio setup I might as well spend the little extra money to make sure that it will always get clean power.

 

[whoaru99]

No guarantees in life...well, except for one, maybe...

But, I'll address that when/if it comes up with the appropriate solution. I'm sort of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

BTW, any day now our fair city is about to flip the switch on a completely new substation (one substation supplies the entire town). Going from a 1950s or 1960s 41.6kV setup to a brand spanking new 115kV system. Should get even better than it is now...

 

[visionviper]

BTW, any day now our fair city is about to flip the switch on a completely new substation (one substation supplies the entire town). Going from a 1950s or 1960s 41.6kV setup to a brand spanking new 115kV system. Should get even better than it is now...

You are one lucky man. I'm currently stuck in a 100 year old house in a small town in eastern Washington. Needless to say, the house has a few shortcomings when it comes to wiring...

 

[jetblack]

For those people who are using some kind of line conditioning, I'd like to see oscilloscope waveforms of input and output voltages under real load.

Ask, and ye shall receive, along with ample explanation.

Part 1

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71333&highlight=power

Part 2

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382&highlight=power

Part 3

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545&highlight=power

Part 4

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72539&highlight=power

 

[whoaru99]

Those are really neato plots and such.

However, what really matters, IMO, is the DC that actually operates the circuits inside the gear.

I think more telling than analysis of the incoming AC, is whether or not any of those things actually improve the cleanliness of the DC coming out of the power supply.

 

[hi_fiman]

Line conditioners??

I am having an actual electrician come here and help me out, thanks for the great advice! You guys rock!!

 

[GeneralE-guy]

To D3imlay:
You didn't mention the shortcomings of the ferroresonant (Sola) transformer. It draws high current , even when lightly or not loaded, runs hot, buzzes noisily, does not produce a clean sine wave, is heavy, bulky, and expensive. It's use would be inappropriate in a home audio system. It is simple and reliable, however.

I've got a 2kW Sola I'm planning to mount outside the house to power my recording studio (under construction). Agree with the issues of current (although that's resonant current, not indicative of power consumption), heat & noise, but not the waveform issue. This from wikipedia: <Older designs of ferroresonant transformers had an output with high harmonic content, leading to a distorted output waveform. Modern devices are used to construct a perfect sinewave>.

Well, nothing's perfect, but 3% max. harmonic (of 60Hz) distortion, should be easily filtered by most any gear's power supply. With its inherent i/o isolation and transient suppression, it seems like a really nice way to go if one's local voltage steps occasionally, as mine does. (Especially for $50 -- surplus!) Anybody got good experience with these things?

 

[elwood127]

When I used one I was amazed at the difference. After switching back a forth a few times I decided it was causing me to dial back bass and treble controls. Sound was much brighter. Not as warm. You need to try it yourself.

 

[donoghue]

I'm going to show my ignorance. If you have a line conditioner such as a Powervar plugged in how much electricity does it use if nothing plugged into it is on? I have a UPS type and am considering buying a simple line conditioner for my parents for their lcdtv but not if they have to unplug it to save electricity. Thanks

 

[Hyperion]

Well, they don't use any electricity - if you want to be r-e-a-l-l-y picky - they do use a tiny tiny tiny amount (yes that's 3 tiny's )

EDIT: I was assuming the use of a simple power conditioner, however I just checked the Powervar website - and it seems their power conditioners have isolation transformers which means that with nothing plugged into the output, there will be a small amount of electricity used. Their spec sheets don't say what the off-load consumption is, it will likely be a very small percentage (single figures) of the on-load consumption. If this is important to you you might want to call or e-mail them and ask - the actual amount used will depend on the specified on-load rating /model of the conditioner.

John

 

[donoghue]

Thank you John for looking that up. Yeah I think most or all the Powervar units have their own transformer. I've got an uninterruptable power supply type and it's pretty substantial weighing in at 40 lbs. I didn't realize how massive it was when I put down my $50 on a new in the box unit (retail $700+). If it's plugged in the internal fan is running even if you have it off (it does have a switch) so I just unplug it when not in use. I'm not sure what effect it has on audio equipment but I like the difference it makes on my lcd tv/monitor and computer. Must be a lot of RF in the apartment wiring or something. I think I'll go ahead and buy them one. If they don't like it they can give it back

 

[Hyperion]

Your experiences echo what many others have found - that "difficult to put your finger on" improvement. It must be a lot to do with presenting the equipment with an 'ideal' power source - in other words not being influenced by the vagueries of the power distribution system.

I seem to be lucky as my power seems very clean - I am 150' from a substation and only recently (first time in 4 years) did we have a pretty serious power cut. It did however go on and off after the intial cut and took out my wireless router - so I now have it (warranty replacement) on a simple surge suppressor (sacrificial type) - as is my other equipment.

Good luck,

John

 

[onedaatmc]

Interesting how much debate has come out of asking my original question ! Based on whats been said , At this particular time I won't be buying a line conditioner !

 

[JBLKRAZEE]

At times it hardly seems fitting to bemoan the lack of "rare" output devices which can plague any resto job, while not accepting that these devices may well be worth the time and trouble just to save a headache down the road. JMHO. :thmbsp:

 

[BrocLuno]

The first rule of electricity around my hose is to actually turn things off when not in use. That means a power strip or other switching device to disconnect the unit(s) from the mains when not in use.

I have pumps and welding equipment in the shop fed by the houshold service. I know I can spike the system down stream of PG&Es transformer. The really annoying one is the Wolf stove spark igniter(s) that will send crackling pops through all the audio gear when we're cooking. BUT, the big deal is that we are on a main branch line on a busy street. When someone takes out a pole (about once a year), we get real nasty transients, surges, pops and partial cross feeds so one leg will climb in voltage while one sags.

I have seen transient 400+ VAC spikes on our 220 lines and they last for more than a second. Occasionally, you can hear the main lines outside the house growl when they get crossed up by a pole down or a tree fall. To help prevent these from taking out equipment on standby, just disconnect. If it happens while in use, the power conditioner will help. But when not in use, shut it all off.