Low watts vs high watts and sound quality

[motorstereo]

It aways amazes me how people hear differently.Ive had all the Sansui/Marantz/pioneer sand amps over the yrs...I felt the sansui au9500 tho good sonically didn't match the sonics of my Pioneeer spec 2/spec 1 setup,or even my Rotel 1603 SS reciever., my Soundcraftsmen ma-5002's and Big Phase linear 700b's matched with a a lowly Apt Holman preamp or a Spec 1 pre amp were excellent but didn't fofill my lust for Hi fidelity .Ive been thru the gambit od SS over 40 yrs.My Harman Kardon Citation16a's biamped thru AR 9's tho capable of huge volume couldn't touch the detail I enjoy with my Fisher 50a mono blocks...Anyhow this has been beat to death.I wouldn't be sitting on a totl Fisher and HH scott tube system after all these yrs if I liked SS sound better.But to each their own.My ubove said keeper gear ran with Vintage TOTL co-axials and triaxial speakers are the end of the line for me
Great hobby we have whereby we can enoy Hi-fidelity from different sources..

hunter

Exactly my point hunter. I didn't feel the 9500 was anything special either as it was beat out by quality separates here as well. That's why I compared it directly to the tube monos. What I found was that anything Stroms could do the old tired and all original Sansui could do better.
Reading through my December 1956 issue of High Fidelity this morning I happened to run across this article in the "Tested in the home" section. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner but I'm thinking you get the gist of what's being said here. I found it rather interesting that a lowly entry level Fisher TR1 transistor pre amp at the dawn of the transistor age could do that much for the man's system when tube design was close to it's peak.
It's all good but tubes certainly aren't the end all for all of us today nor was it for this tube guy from 1956.

 

[whoaru99]

Funny how no-one's ever done a tube sub.....

Never say never.

Here's me running a mono-strapped tube amp (the one on the floor), powering a Bucket Sub. Sounded pretty darn good too.

Oh, and yeah, it's a tube pre amp and a tube amp for the mid/highs.

 

[bowtie427ss]

.i listen with my ears

............ and you should do more of that instead of posting your personal opinion of tubes as a blanket fact, because it's not.

 

[kirk57]

If nobody else has said it, I will: the OP should just be happy with what he has for the time being rather than starting down the path In search of the 'better'.

There will *always* be something 'better'.

 

[JoeESP9]

of course its not the only way.go get yourself a shoulder held ss portable 1980's AM/Fm radio if that floats yur boat,
have it recapped and trick it out with headphones.
my opinion of Low watts vs high watts and sound quality will always be low watts tube amps/preamps and efficient speakers reign for quality sound.Its what 40 yrs in this crazy hobby has taught me.
Would luv to have you over for a listen whoareyou??.. tubes are warm right now
It may open yur eyes'''

hunter

Yabba, Yabba! You, your tubes and HE speakers are the only way to go. NOT! You forget that others have been involved in this as long or longer than you and simply don't agree with your subjective impressions. Tube driven ESL's with SS driven sub woofers are what floats my boat.

 

[Tom Brennan]

I've been very pleased with both tubes-horns and tubes-stats. And with SS-horns.

 

[Olddrums]

I like hearing about all aspects of this hobby. The elite stuff and the common. I am a barber and was talking to a client about all the Pioneer gear and he told me that was the set up he wanted growing up but could never make it happen. I have that guys dream set up and found it in pawnshops and thrift stores. I sold my Advents and Yamaha to a coworker for cheap because he really missed using his record player. Now that's all he does at home. For me, it's about good sound and not breaking the bank. This is a wonderful hobby that has lots of options and price points. I won't spend $1500-$3000 on a amp or solid state. I would rather buy more vintage drums and cymbals. Also, thanks to everyone for their comments.

 

[Superampman]

So, is there a way to look at the specs of the amp to get an idea for clarity? I know the best way would be to listen to it, but if I'm Ebaying would there be a way to get an idea?

Big number for slew rate and small number for rise time. Fast rise time correlates to good transient response/attack/clarity/lack of sibilance; a relatively vertical rise and fall time as observed on it's square wave performance. Aside from other issues, without this attribute, the amp will be slow/laid back/warm/gag worthy. Slew rate affects how well the amp can sustain output at it's bandwidth extreme. Both together bear the dubious distinction of a 'fast' amp.

 

[nj pheonix]

If nobody else has said it, I will: the OP should just be happy with what he has for the time being rather than starting down the path In search of the 'better'.

There will *always* be something 'better'.

Your right . I think I was there with post #14.
OP enjoy your stuff.
If you need to read another argument. Ask again in the future.

 

[Superampman]

It aways amazes me how people hear differently.Ive had all the Sansui/Marantz/pioneer sand amps over the yrs...I felt the sansui au9500 tho good sonically didn't match the sonics of my Pioneeer spec 2/spec 1 setup,or even my Rotel 1603 SS reciever., my Soundcraftsmen ma-5002's and Big Phase linear 700b's matched with a a lowly Apt Holman preamp or a Spec 1 pre amp were excellent but didn't fofill my lust for Hi fidelity .Ive been thru the gambit od SS over 40 yrs.My Harman Kardon Citation16a's biamped thru AR 9's tho capable of huge volume couldn't touch the detail I enjoy with my Fisher 50a mono blocks...Anyhow this has been beat to death.I wouldn't be sitting on a totl Fisher and HH scott tube system after all these yrs if I liked SS sound better.But to each their own.My ubove said keeper gear ran with Vintage TOTL co-axials and triaxial speakers are the end of the line for me
Great hobby we have whereby we can enoy Hi-fidelity from different sources..

hunter

None of the ss amps you mention are high end. From your preferences it seems you would not like the sound of sota tubes either, especially otls.

 

[JoeESP9]

Thanks for your reply, Hunter. I see now. But, what I was wondering - I didn't word it right - do you feel that the tube separates (power amp/ preamp) give you a better sound than a vintage tube receiver?

IMO/IME separates with tubes or SS sound better than any receiver, tube or SS.

 

[Alobar]

I smell smoke...

 

[matteos]

Current is more important than Watts for control over the speakers drivers. A high current amp will sound way more powerful than a lower current amp with the same wattage. Then you have to factor into how your speakers interact with the amp. If your speakers have a low impedance curve they will need a high current amp. A high impedance curve means you can run them with a flea amp as long as they are sensitive enough. Also, how are these Watts measured? At what distortion rate? An AVR with 100 Watts at 10% distortion or a separate amp with those watts measured at 0.001%

 

[Vintagear]

Big number for slew rate and small number for rise time. Fast rise time correlates to good transient response/attack/clarity/lack of sibilance; a relatively vertical rise and fall time as observed on it's square wave performance. Aside from other issues, without this attribute, the amp will be slow/laid back/warm/gag worthy. Slew rate affects how well the amp can sustain output at it's bandwidth extreme. Both together bear the dubious distinction of a 'fast' amp.

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread because IMO for the most part it's all a matter of personal preference (tubes vs solid state- low power vs high power), all can sound excellent.

Regardless, your comment caught my attention, I'm not sure if you're being facetious but IMO you're spot on when you said "Fast rise time correlates to good transient response/attack/clarity/lack of sibilance".

I have an amp with a slew rate of 260 V/usec and a rise time of 0.5 usec. Frequency response is from DC- 500,000 Hz +0dB -3 dB. It's also backed up with plenty of clean power 160W(8) 240W(4), low distortion (0.007%) and a signal to noise of 125 dB. All good, but you still have to audition to see what it sounds like.

When I purchased it, it was in pristine external & internal condition. I wasn't going to take a chance with it and possibly blow it's high speed outputs so I immediately sent it off for a complete restoration (~ 300 parts). I won't get into the sound quality here but in a nutshell - it's stunning. Is it overkill? I don't know but I'm a believer, this is the type of sonic presentation that I currently prefer.

BTW, those aren't just bogus marketing specs. Other individuals that have had this amp restored routinely post oscilloscope shots of clean square waves at over 40 kHz. This is a crystal clear, quiet, musical, emotionally engaging wire with gain. I get that you can't rely on specs alone but when the specs are fantastic and the sound quality is there to back them up, you know you have a winner.

 

[Superampman]

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread because IMO for the most part it's all a matter of personal preference (tubes vs solid state- low power vs high power), all can sound excellent.

Regardless, your comment caught my attention, I'm not sure if you're being facetious but IMO you're spot on when you said "Fast rise time correlates to good transient response/attack/clarity/lack of sibilance".

I have an amp with a slew rate of 260 V/usec and a rise time of 0.5 usec. Frequency response is from DC- 500,000 Hz +0dB -3 dB. It's also backed up with plenty of clean power 160W(8) 240W(4), low distortion (0.007%) and a signal to noise of 125 dB. All good, but you still have to audition to see what it sounds like.

When I purchased it, it was in pristine external & internal condition. I wasn't going to take a chance with it and possibly blow it's high speed outputs so I immediately sent it off for a complete restoration (~ 300 parts). I won't get into the sound quality here but in a nutshell - it's stunning. Is it overkill? I don't know but I'm a believer, this is the type of sonic presentation that I currently prefer.

BTW, those aren't just bogus marketing specs. Other individuals that have had this amp restored routinely post oscilloscope shots of clean square waves at over 40 kHz. This is a crystal clear, quiet, musical, emotionally engaging wire with gain. I get that you can't rely on specs alone but when the specs are fantastic and the sound quality is there to back them up, you know you have a winner.

Bottom line is you don't get great sq without commensurate specs. But I'm dying to know what amp you're referring to?

 

[Vintagear]

Bottom line is you don't get great sq without commensurate specs. But I'm dying to know what amp you're referring to?

Sansui AU-X1. Here's a thread I started when I got it last year. My impressions after I auditioned it post-restoration are on page 5.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-mighty-au-x1.672322/

 

[mdev]

The SX-650 is a nice unit. That was my first one until I got my SX-737 which I thought was a little warmer. I'm now running an 850 but that 650 went to my son and he has it paired with his HPM 60's He loves that amp.

 

[Superampman]

Sansui AU-X1. Here's a thread I started when I got it last year. My impressions after I auditioned it post-restoration are on page 5.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-mighty-au-x1.672322/

Looks like something worthwhile having. Your description is testimony to a well designed amp for sure.

 

[whoaru99]

Big number for slew rate and small number for rise time. Fast rise time correlates to good transient response/attack/clarity/lack of sibilance; a relatively vertical rise and fall time as observed on it's square wave performance. Aside from other issues, without this attribute, the amp will be slow/laid back/warm/gag worthy. Slew rate affects how well the amp can sustain output at it's bandwidth extreme. Both together bear the dubious distinction of a 'fast' amp.

Slew rate has little to do with "fast" or "slow" or attack/transient response.

It has a lot to do with bandwidth.

 

[gbroot]

To the Op, my .02 on low watts vs higher watts is that I have had nearly all of the SX-x2x,x3x,x5x,x8x series minus the 1250, 1280,1980. My favorite, SX-626 (20 watt/ch) paired with KLH Model 5. Very warm, almost tube sounding. Go figure.