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LS360, LS320 and CS350 plus subwoofer

So far the LS360's do sound better alone on music too me. (A clean sound)
I was curious if I was the only one who thought this.

I have not given up on a sub, but I will trade up!

The only sub that I could find that would blend seamlessly with the LS360 was the Martin Logan Descent. I have two of the older versions. I can highly recommend that sub and tell you that it will absolutely blend. They are extremely clean. You can not locate them in the room by sound. I was always able to tell where the other subs where in the room that I tried and most lagged behind the music. The Mcintosh PS112 sub was very musical and blended well but not as well as the Descent. The PS112 is ported and I could hear the port noise. The newer version is not ported but I don't have any experience with it. I suspect that it may be a good choice since it is sealed and the PS112 was almost there with the exception of the port noise. My two Descents will shake your pants and "punch you in the stomach" with cannon ball shots. "Master and Commander" is a real sensory assault. The large bass traps in my room could be contributing to the subs blending so well so factor that in. Still I believe the Martin Logan Descent is the ticket. Rel B1 and JL Fathoms are the other two subs that I have heard in other's set-ups that seems to blend. NO expeirence at home with these brands. I'm 100% satisfied with the Martin Logans Descents though. If your choice is between a cheaper sub and no sub. I would opt for no sub. Unless it's done absolutely right, a sub can actually reduce your enjoyment of your system.

As for cross-over points. I cross my rears, the WS350 at 60hz. When I had the CS350s, I crossed them over at 80hz as Ron-C advised.
 
I operate 2 PS112s with my LS320s and I hear no port noise. Very musical with hi-pass set at 80Hz, blends perfectly. :music:

You'll hardly ever hear it with music. Only time I heard it was when the sub was driven really hard. "Master and Commander," created port noise for example. On the cannon shots, you will be able to locate the PS112 at reference levels because of the port noise. A dealer told me that is the reason the replacement model is sealed and not ported. Port noise is really one of the few thngs that can give away the location of a good sub if properly set-up.
 
Those interested in adding a sub to their system would benefit from reading Robert Harley's overview of two leading subs (including the popular JL Audio F113) in the January 2007 issue of TAS. He describes in some detail the pros and cons of ported and sealed subs. The proper design and engineering of each is important to ensure quality sound. I have the PS112 (ported) and the XLS112 (sealed) and both work equally well.
 
Those interested in adding a sub to their system would benefit from reading Robert Harley's overview of two leading subs (including the popular JL Audio F113) in the January 2007 issue of TAS. He describes in some detail the pros and cons of ported and sealed subs. The proper design and engineering of each is important to ensure quality sound. I have the PS112 (ported) and the XLS112 (sealed) and both work equally well.

William, can you please provide a link to this article( Jan 2007 in TAS)? I could not locate it. Thanks.
 
I have the PS112 (ported) and the XLS112 (sealed) and both work equally well.
Ok, I'll just put it out on the table. I was told by someone at Mcintosh ,who would certainly know, that the reason the XLS112 is not ported is because of the port noise of the PS112 so they moved away from the port. If the port worked as well then why did the go to a sealed sub?
 
The XLS112 is much smaller than the PS112. Usually a small sub will be sealed for deeper bass. The mass of the driver and often the length of its' stroke are also increased. The amp in the PS112 is also somewhat beefier than on the PS112.

thanks,
Ron-C
 
Further to what Ron said, my LS320s and PS112 are bi-amped so the 200 watt MA6500 has plenty of power at 80Hz and up. I find the power of the MA6500 and PS112 to be about even and well balanced. On the other hand, I run the XLS 340s full range so the additional 200 watts in the MC402 comes in handy. The slightly stronger XLS112 can keep up with the larger amp for a nice smooth and powerful sound. When listening to music at normal levels, I am hard-pressed to tell the two systems apart.
 
Further to what Ron said, my LS320s and PS112 are bi-amped so the 200 watt MA6500 has plenty of power at 80Hz and up. I find the power of the MA6500 and PS112 to be about even and well balanced.
You can not under normal circumstances bi-amp the PS112 as it has an internal amp. The LS320 has a single set of bindng post, it can not be bi-amped as well. Further, I stand by my comments. "Master and Commander" will make the PS112 huff and chuff like the big bad wolf at anything near reference levels. It's not a question of ported vs non-ported subs. Not all ported subs have audible port noise. The PS112 does if it is driven hard. I called Mcintosh and Chuck Hinton told me he was aware of the port noise. He suggested that I buy the XLS112 instead because it of course does not.
 
Optimally installing a subwoofer means biamping, i.e., externally connecting the subwoofer through an active electronic crossover that has both low-pass and high-pass filters. Many modern subwoofers like the PS112 are "powered", that is, they have all that's required already built into one box: driver, crossover, amplifier and switching facilities. Biamping requires either pre-out and amp-in line-level connections or dedicated subwoofer connections on a home theater processor. The MA6500 and PS112 satisfy these requirements.

In terms of why the PS112 is ported and the XLS112 sealed, I think ron-c's explanation is sufficient.
 
Morning person :)

My sub is a Kliptch RW- 12D.
It does not sound right with DVD music concerts.
Kind of a constant Brrrmmmm sound under the music like it cant keep up.

I believe it will be going back. I tried to go cheap and it sounds cheap.
Or maybe I am not a sub guy!

One thing that I think should be discussed is what your goals and expectations are with a sub. The reason that I am bringing this up is I am not sure of how much more bass you want. I used a Radio Shack sound meter with a correction chart from Rives Audio to measure my room. The Radio Shack meter is "off' at low frequencies and the correction chart allows you to get a reasonably accurate picture of your low bass response. My LS360s measure flat at 20hz and up 3db at 25hz in my room. That's pretty impressive performance for a pair of speakers. What a sub can give you is even lower output and more output at higher db. To be honest, it will take either a really powerful single sub or two powerful subs to add any meaningful impact with already exc. output of the LS360s. Movies hit really loud dynamic bass peaks however. A good sub or two can add impact. For music, I don't bother with my subs. I'd suggest either you buy a test bass cd or download and burn the test tones off of the Real Traps website. Use those with a Radio Shack analog sound meter if you have one or can get one to see what's actually going on in the room.

Further, you should consider equalizing any sub. The easy way to do it is to buy a Velodyne SMS-1. There are many advantages to crossing your speakers over to a sub and using an eq. First, most rooms have powerful room modes. For example you could have and be unaware of a 15db peak at say 33hz. The effect ot this is that softer more delicate sounds can be masked by such huge bass peaks. The bass is drowning out the mids and highs to some extent. Another reason is that removing some of the strong bass from the LS360 can reduce intermodulation distortion, per Ron-C. Also, equalizing the sub allows you to more efficiently use the amplifier power. By reducing the level of the room modes which are just drowning out the rest of the frequency anyway, you leave more amp power for the places where you really need it in the subwoofers output.

Although the easy way to do it is just use a Velodyne SMS-1. I prefer to uses a parametric EQ. The one that I have used for years is the Rane PE17. The Velodyne measures at certain frequecies that are commonly a problem but does not allow for as fine of an adjustment as a parametric eq. For example you could have a room mode, bass peak, at say 39hz and not 33hz where the Velodyne may measure. I forget exactly the points it measures. So you can more precisely reduce the bass peaks with something like the Rane model. For most folks, though, the Velodyne will offer a huge improvement and be all that they need.

The other factors are speaker placement and seating location. If you ever do measure your room, you will likely find that different locations measure quite differently. Where in one spot there may be huge peaks, in other places there can be nulls, where bass at certain frequencies is very low in output. Some people use this to their advantage and place a sub in the corner ro take advantage of the bass peaks that are most pronounced there. You can get more output with less power in corner and then eq out the peaks thereby allowing your sub to be more efficent.Because of the way room modes behave, howeer, it may be best to have speakers and seating locations at odd number measurements. Bass tends to "pile up" at even number locations because of the way bass waves travel. This is an over-simplification but basically what happens. For example in my room, I place my speakers at locations that are 1/7 of the length and width of the room. For example my room is 24.5 feet long so my front speakers are 3.5 from the front wall and 2.4 feet from the side walls. My seating location is about 14 feet from the front wall which is about 4/7ths of the length of the room. This is not exact but it gives you a ball park to start as to where the best seating locations and speaker locations are in a room. You may have to move the locations slightly forward or back to get the flatest responses from you audio system. Of course you can just ignore most of this advice and just buy a Velodyne SMS-1 and use the mike to measure at your seating location which will correct most but not all of your room modes.:) You'll get the best result if you are able to do multiple things like eq, seating position, and speaker placement.
 
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