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Mach One 4024, 4024A, 4029 Information and Upgrades!

Model with New T/S Parameters

Here is a model of the Mach One Driver with the Mods. It is the Red Line, Bessel Alignment. Before you respond about the gain in the lower output, you must note that in the measurements of the real system there is a 4.5db gain in the 80hz thru 200hz range due to diffraction effects of the baffle's dimensions.
 

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Original T/S

You mention new t/s parameters, what were the old t/s parameters and what did you do to change them?

I was not interested in the original T/S as I knew I would change them. However, I did measure them to know what changes were needed. I will look and see if I can find them. As to what I did for the new ones, well, you will have to wait for the Tier 2 paper.:yes:
 
Even in a thread that improves the Mach One Series

There are just some that can't resist the temptation to poke and slander, only showing the lack of control, congruent w/the discipline of youth.

I'll reiterate w/Bond in his postings. And so will my friends that come over to compliment the Mach One. Your views regarding Mach One are well publicized and simply show the readers and Mach fans that we have hearing issues or don't know what to listen for in great music, good music or crap music. as if alot of us Mach fans don't have an ear for music. The Mach served its audiences very well some 30 years back thru today... many recognize the Mach One as a icon in its purest form of the word. Alot of us in this thread were born around 1960 or thereabouts...Thank You, Video.

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May your palms bear many dates...
 
Asking questions isn't about being negative towards the Mach Ones, what VL is doing is transforming them to being a hifi speaker in Mach One clothing. I wonder if anyone who liked the original will like the modded version? If so, it might validate my concerns with the sound of the original...

I want VL to continue on but I would like to see, as Zilch would say, "More Data...Less Wank".

For instance, the t/s parameters don't jive. There is a misprint somewhere, you don't get 93dB sensitivity with a driver with a resonant frequency of 11hz and a Vas of only 602 liters. Now, if that was meant to be a VAS of 210cu ft or 6000 liters, we are on to something. I'm making some assumptions here regarding the 15" woofer's cone area, guessing at approx 850 cm^2. As it stands, I'm not sure how those t/s parameters are being generated.
 
With the tools i have , creating a 12 X 4 inch cut out would be easier for me, as my 4 inch hole saw is too used & dull ... :(

Thanks, i will do it that way and post a pic later on....

Have a great day everyone..
 
More Data...Less Wank

I want VL to continue on but I would like to see, as Zilch would say, "More Data...Less Wank".

For instance, the t/s parameters don't jive. There is a misprint somewhere, you don't get 93dB sensitivity with a driver with a resonant frequency of 11hz and a Vas of only 602 liters.

As it stands, I am one of few on this thread that has backed up what I've said with data, real data and test results. You have been more than clear you don't like the Machs or anything about them. It seems that your goal is to get people to confirm your opinion that the original Mach 1 speakers are no good. Am I right? I don't think that but I do know that they can be much better and that is why I have done all this work. As to your other comment that the T/S don't jive. Yes they do! Fact is, they jive so much that the modeled driver and T/S parameters do exactly the same thing, both in the model and in real world measurements. That's as good a correlation as one needs. You have loaded and unloaded measurements and multiple ones to get good correlated data for the T/S. Some of the parameters you see are unloaded and others that really matter are listed loaded, like the QTS, VAS and SPL. If the VAS was listed as unloaded the number would be much greater. Because we are not going to listen to the woofer laying in the floor out of the cabinet, the unloaded VAS, IMO, is not an important number. Hope this helps to clarify things! :thmbsp:
 
I was trying to make the efficiency work, increasing the VAS tenfold was the easiest way to get there if the 11hz Fs is correct. As it stands, if the specs outside of efficiency are correct, than they are 83dB woofers, not 93db. It would be the easiest for people to follow along if you used industry standards, which would mean measuring the t/s unloaded so those that want to build a more ideal enclosure could use the t/s parameters listed in a meaningful way.
 
RE: Midrange mods! Something you might want to look into for "felts" is the ones sold at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. which are usually located in the same place as wheels and casters or with door knobs and such. They come in whole sheets or "dots" of different sizes. Based on dimensions provided by VL these should be almost ideal if not perfect. They often come in different styles and densities so it may be possible not only to find the perfect match, but someone could post the brand of product and where they got them making it even easier for people to make this mod correctly.

Francis
 
Yes , i have these felts, that's why i asked. I am happy those will work.. :)

Maybe the New Tier2 mod paper should state that, as their really easy to come by, even at the dollar store..

:)

Have a good one... Lunch Time!
 
T/S Original Parameters & Other Info

Here are the Original Parameters for the 4029 Driver. I also have included proof of my testing. I stated that the driver produced clean sound up to 9mm of cone travel. The specs that have been listed by others on the Xmax is wrong. The real measurements are just as I had observed in my listening test, confirming my hearing of the 9mm of cone travel before modulation. The real measured total Xmax for the 4029 is 10mm!! It is now confirmed.:yes:
Please see the images attached!! Way better woofer than what I first thought. I was challenged to the point that the only thing left was to cut one apart and have a look-see!! This driver is awesome!!!:banana:
 

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Hey videolady, perhaps it might be a wise idea to post (again?) what you are using for a measurement system?
 
My first Hi-Fi speaker had a 8" driver with whizzer cone and a tweeter that was about 3" in diameter. It was in a ~ 12w-10d-18h box with a non-removable grill. They cost me like $25 each; it was all I could afford with my paper route money. See I had just bought a receiver from Montgomery Wards, it was on clearance. But what to do about speakers? So a week or so latter I bought those. The cheapest speakers I could find. WOW did they sound good, serious. I could not even drive at the time.

Then I saved for good speakers. I looked around, my criteria was the biggest woofer and the SPL rating had to be at least 90db. I bought some Technics Sbl-70 11" 3 way speakers. OMG did they look good and play nice and loud with decent base. Don't ask me about mid-range smoothness? What is that? No one talked about it back then. Read the literature. Selling points were smooth, big, nice looking, big woofer, lots of power handling... even look at JBL adds. Anyways my next receiver was a Technics 50wpc WOW... my Mom drove me to go get it. I found it on clearance someplace kinda far. I bought this because I blew my first receiver by touching the back speaker breakers I did something really dumb and blew a channel, my fault it still might play today if I did not do that. But hey I really enjoyed the Technics 50wpc. It had so much more power and could really push those 11" drivers.

But I was not happy with the speakers when my friend two doors down bought some Realistic T-70 towers. They had an 8" woofer in a tuned labyrinth (small) tower 29"t, 10"X10". And just blew mine away for BASS that's all that counted, how loud could they play and how much and deep you could go. Those towers also had a 1" softdome tweeter and I could hear better sound. We would ride our bikes to Radio-Shack just to look at the Mach Ones and big receivers and wish... well I saved and did it. When I turned 16 and could barely drive I bought some Mach Ones on sale for $125 each. I brought them home and they blasted the bass like I had never heard before. I was shocked at how much bass they had. My friend left in big disappointment... there was no contest.

Now somethings I have learned, Yes the MachOnes must be on the ground near the corner (or just on the ground) and the tweeter and mid controls must be at +3dB to bring it up to the woofer. I knew this 30 years ago. Trying to make them sound like hi-end speakers at the shops putting them on tall stands was not effective. I had to leave them on the ground, I as (most) everyone played them with the bass and treble controls all they way up. Or lots of folks used an EQ with the smile tone level on all speakers EQs were big sellers back then, wonder why? I never used an EQ except for the bass, the RS EQ was for bass. I set it all they down to about 45Hz and this gave me much better sound as I was only boosting the bass around the region as a tone control would boost if from 500hz down! This little box may have given me an advantage, it also allowed the MachOned to play down to 40Hz at room shaking volume, thats not bad! That (bass EQ) box was superb!
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After this the rest is history, I moved around but never lost track of my MachOnes. For a few years I did not have them with me but they were back at Moms... From there my Hi-Fi budget grew larger and I have stated the rest. So those are my memories of them. Do they sound good now compared to a Definitive Technology BP10? No! Not at all... but my ears have changed, I am older now (mid-forties) and Paradigm and the NRC brought good sound to all of us. Back in the day there was worse speakers than the MachOnes thats all I have to say... well no I will say more but...

I really enjoyed the MachOnes and have a soft-spot for them in my memory. As I said they sit there the most abused speaker I have ever seen, and they just sit there with no blown drivers. I want to keep them for life.

Everyone's experience is different. Some may have listened to them and found them the worst speaker ever and have charts now to back up how good they are at listening...OK (the original M1 Fz measurment). I knew 30 years ago they were not the smoothest speaker in the world in fact that's what a mini review said of them. I had a magazine that reviewed almost all of the speakers out in that day (wish I kept it) in price segments. The reviewer said and I remember because I read it so many times "The MachOnes may not be the worlds most accurate uncoloured reproducer of sound, but if your looking for maximum volume for the buck don't over look them". This was written 30 years ago. Believe me 80% of speakers back then were not accurate but voiced for a sound the seller wanted, you had the east coast sound west coast sound. This was before the NRC.

If the Mach Ones brought you no pleasure so be it. If they did good for you (as me). We all knew they were not designed for classical stuff back then but to blow a hole in the wall as one of my friends said... :thmbsp:
 
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Measurement System Used

Hey videolady, perhaps it might be a wise idea to post (again?) what you are using for a measurement system?

Here is the information on the Measurement System I am using. It is the Industry standard as well as the Industry Leader and for a good reason.:smoke:

http://www.linearx.com/products/software/LEAP5/LEAP5_01.htm

Xmax measurements was with an Electronic Digital Caliper, Standard and Metric.
 
Who is the real wanker?

I was trying to make the efficiency work, increasing the VAS tenfold was the easiest way to get there if the 11hz Fs is correct. As it stands, if the specs outside of efficiency are correct, than they are 83dB woofers, not 93db. It would be the easiest for people to follow along if you used industry standards, which would mean measuring the t/s unloaded so those that want to build a more ideal enclosure could use the t/s parameters listed in a meaningful way.

Honestly these obviously negative comments are pointless and useless. It's quite obvious that we Mach One owners are not particularly interested in building our own "ideal" enclosure. If we were we could still base the final dimensions on close proximity to the original design, figuring in modifications made by VL. Anyone who has followed this thread also realizes the impact of those modifications, such as changes in the xMas and it's audible influences. This is not an exercise in "best" application/use of Mach One drivers "outside" the factory enclosure but a means to restore and/or enhance the existing components as a whole. I fully plan to make my own cabinets using VL info, but only because my cabinets are damaged in such a way that I feel they are impacting the full potential of the original components. If your (dnewma04) real goal (which truly is what it comes across as) is to slam Mach One speakers, please start your own thread so the rest of us can take in, explore and at the same time admire the conviction of one persons efforts to improve on a design that has survived over 30 years of changing music, and demands.

(now stepping down from the soapbox)

Thank you
:music:
 
"it might validate my concerns with the sound of the original..."

Why would anyone be concerned about how good the MachOnes sounded. I know for a fact most speakers around its price range were no better or worse... Its subjective.

You can't validate your concerns... my experience proves to me they were great. You experience proves to you they were colored and you did not like them. What else do you want? I have never really heard a 'bad' speaker over say $50. Heck even PC speakers sound good. Are you trying to prove the MachOnes were the worse speakers you ever heard, and we all need a reality check because you know better than us? Again you can't take away my experience with them. Perhaps if you owned them you may have enjoyed them as I.
 
Here are the Original Parameters for the 4029 Driver. I also have included proof of my testing. I stated that the driver produced clean sound up to 9mm of cone travel. The specs that have been listed by others on the Xmax is wrong. The real measurements are just as I had observed in my listening test, confirming my hearing of the 9mm of cone travel before modulation. The real measured total Xmax for the 4029 is 10mm!! It is now confirmed.:yes:
Please see the images attached!! Way better woofer than what I first thought. I was challenged to the point that the only thing left was to cut one apart and have a look-see!! This driver is awesome!!!:banana:

I hope you did not cut up your woofer????

Anyways I knew something was wrong with that 1/4" stuff. As I have seen the woofer move much more than that and stay clean.

BTW
Thank you
 
I have a cousin who still has a first production set of Mach 1's when they were first sold(late 70's,early 80's not sure exactly) in Canada,straight 4024's with no A.All veneered fro top to bottom,side to side and guess what Rubber surrounds still like the day he bought them.He lives in another province but I will try to get some pic of these whenever he can send me some.......:)
 
Cut Up Woofers / Info

I hope you did not cut up your woofer????

Anyways I knew something was wrong with that 1/4" stuff. As I have seen the woofer move much more than that and stay clean.

BTW
Thank you

I did cut it up. That's fine because now we all know for sure what the Xmax is. No big deal I will just rebuild it...:thmbsp:

Also, I have attached more pics to confirm this new information. The 4029 is a dual layer voice coil and not a four layer. This explains the increased Xmax on the 4029. Same amount of wire, two layers, equals a longer winding length on the former. The unit I have pulled apart, is not edge wound but is round wire of 28ga. The voice coil former is aluminum and is coated in an copper dielectric. The magnet is bolted to the frame! Way better than the rivets most other manufactures use. A very nice and well made driver!!:yes:
 

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