Marantz pre VS Harmon Kardon Pre
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avguytx
Lunatic Member
I've got a Carver CT-17 that I've been using for about 4 years now. Maybe not the best preamp out there but I like having remote control capability. The tone controls on mine are usually set flat but that depends on what speakers are being used with it. Not that familiar with the other two in your original post. I also use a Carver CT-7 and a Soundcraftsmen DX4200.
dshoaf
That high voltage buzz
Given that these preamps are 30+/- years old, they're all going to be candidates for some rework to bring them back to their original sonic characteristics. Therefore, I'd not put much stock in asking about the sonic differences in gear that old - you'll be getting highly subjective answers.
As for the Citation 17, it _can_ have a very low noise floor and throw a very good sound stage. The one I have needed a rebuild of the power supply board to get that way, along with a swapping of the electrolytic caps in the audio chain. The 5-band EQ is fun to play with but I don't use it. It can be completely switched out of the circuit.
Cheers,
David
As for the Citation 17, it _can_ have a very low noise floor and throw a very good sound stage. The one I have needed a rebuild of the power supply board to get that way, along with a swapping of the electrolytic caps in the audio chain. The 5-band EQ is fun to play with but I don't use it. It can be completely switched out of the circuit.
Cheers,
David
minkybut
AK Member
What really makes a great preamp anyway? I'm not talking about the # of inputs and lights and doo dads. In other words why is a Mcintosh (other that the name) like 6 times more than a Kenwood. Why did the $79 Kenwood I just bought sound like crap? Except for with my Klipsch speakers I could not bearto listen to it.
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
The quality of the parts, the circuit design and the attention to sound quality when designing the unit really affects the overall result. Although the preamp is one of the components that matters much less than the cartridge and speakers for sound of a system, they do have their sound and some like this others like that.
Additionally, the load a preamp sees can have an effect on the sound quality. This is why a preamp will work well with one amp and maybe not so well with another.
Additionally, the load a preamp sees can have an effect on the sound quality. This is why a preamp will work well with one amp and maybe not so well with another.
A note on the price of used McIntosh is in order here.
While they may not be the best sounding equipment in absolute terms, McIntosh has demonstrated a firm commitment to customer service like few other vintage Audio Manufacturers. Why is this so important??? Well, in answer to your question regarding the sound, as you describe it, of your $79 Kenwood preamp, one may ask, what service has it had? There in lies your answer. Vintage equipment may be a bargain; but will only sound good if it has been maintained. Sonic quality, while not limited to, often boils down to the condition of the electrolytic caps in your gear. From time to time a resistor will burn out or just go out of spec. If it's in the wrong place, it can make a great difference sonically; but as caps dry out, so goes your sound quality. Don't blame the designer for the owner's failure to maintain his equipment.
The HK Citation amps were very nice; but I'd prefer a good refurbed Marantz preamp, in this order:
Marantz Model 7T, 33, 3300, 3600, 3200.
The 3200 can often be found at a very attractive price, and should be right up your alley, if, as you say, you don't want all the buttons and knobs of the more costly 3600 or 3800, for example. The 3200 is sonically, just as good, and at a better price. I'd aviod the Dolby feature in the 3800.
In addition to the Soundcraftsmen and Mark Levinson preamps I mentioned in your other thread, I'm definitely a Marantz fan. If you won't plan to refurbish your 'new' preamp, then you would be well advised to limit your choice to the Marantz 3200 or 3600. While they too will eventually need a little TLC, the older Models 7T/33/3300 will soomer rather than later need attention to the aging, drying electrolytic caps, etc.
Worth noting, though, a properly restored Marantz 7T will rival most any preamp you can find. Attention to detail being the key to a thorough restoration.
minkybut
AK Member
Good advice PB. You make some great points. I like the Marantz 3200 the way its designed. I still really like the HK's design the best so far of all of them cause its got that small 5 band tone control. I just don't know how good they are. The Mcintosh C31 I like also with 5 tone controls, but paying for one is another story. Can you think of any other brand similar to those two in terms a 5 band eq's? I liked those Souncraftsmans u suggested, just have too many sliders. More precise adjustment, but harder too make fast changes.
Here's another twist for you to consider...
Unless you have a real problem with your room acoustics, or a set of speakers with a specific frequency response issue that can be corrected with the help of an equalizer, the only need for tone controls at all is when playing at very low volumes, as in backround music, like dinner music in a restaurant, for example. At low volumes, the typical room acoustics seem to soak up the bass. That's the reason most receivers have a 'LOUDNESS' Buttom. At normal volume levels, however, you're supposed to turn the 'LOUDNESS' button OFF.
In fact, many of the best audio manufacturers today make what is called a 'line amp', like the ARC (Audio Research Corp) LS-15. It's a preamp with no tone controls at all, and no LOUDNESS button either.
In fact, aside for the terrible room acoustics I had in my first appartment, when the Soundcraftsmen PE-2217 did an excellent job of 'fixing' the problem, I use my PE-2217 with the EQ OUT. That is, with the 20 frequency band sliders completely bypassed, as with a straight wire. With a good music source, power amp and speakers, the best preamp is the one that imparts nothing to the sound at all... the virtual 'straight wire with gain'. That is to say, just enough gain to drive the amp as needed. All that extra circuitry just adds noise.
My next preamp is likely to be either the ARC LS-15, Conrad-Johnson PV-5 or the Placette Passive Linestage Preamp. Take a peak. Here's a LINK:
http://www.placetteaudio.com/passive_line.htm
All three have no tone controls of any kind. The ARC LS-15 doesn't even have a phone preamp stage.
And, you mention McIntosh again... the only MAC preamps I like at all are the old tube models like the Model 20 and especially the Model 22, IIRC, and they are very pricey today.
The beauty part of the Soundcraftsmen PE-2217 is that once you have your room acoustics sorted out, assuming that's possible, you can just bupass the EQ all together. The preamp is quiet and gets out of the way of the music, AND, most importantly, without adding that nagging upper-midrange 'sizzle' or 'edginess' that is so hard to design away, even among so many of the most popular brands, although, better caps in critical locations can often substantially lessen the tendency in many pieces.
Unless you have a real problem with your room acoustics, or a set of speakers with a specific frequency response issue that can be corrected with the help of an equalizer, the only need for tone controls at all is when playing at very low volumes, as in backround music, like dinner music in a restaurant, for example. At low volumes, the typical room acoustics seem to soak up the bass. That's the reason most receivers have a 'LOUDNESS' Buttom. At normal volume levels, however, you're supposed to turn the 'LOUDNESS' button OFF.
In fact, many of the best audio manufacturers today make what is called a 'line amp', like the ARC (Audio Research Corp) LS-15. It's a preamp with no tone controls at all, and no LOUDNESS button either.
In fact, aside for the terrible room acoustics I had in my first appartment, when the Soundcraftsmen PE-2217 did an excellent job of 'fixing' the problem, I use my PE-2217 with the EQ OUT. That is, with the 20 frequency band sliders completely bypassed, as with a straight wire. With a good music source, power amp and speakers, the best preamp is the one that imparts nothing to the sound at all... the virtual 'straight wire with gain'. That is to say, just enough gain to drive the amp as needed. All that extra circuitry just adds noise.
My next preamp is likely to be either the ARC LS-15, Conrad-Johnson PV-5 or the Placette Passive Linestage Preamp. Take a peak. Here's a LINK:
http://www.placetteaudio.com/passive_line.htm
All three have no tone controls of any kind. The ARC LS-15 doesn't even have a phone preamp stage.
And, you mention McIntosh again... the only MAC preamps I like at all are the old tube models like the Model 20 and especially the Model 22, IIRC, and they are very pricey today.
The beauty part of the Soundcraftsmen PE-2217 is that once you have your room acoustics sorted out, assuming that's possible, you can just bupass the EQ all together. The preamp is quiet and gets out of the way of the music, AND, most importantly, without adding that nagging upper-midrange 'sizzle' or 'edginess' that is so hard to design away, even among so many of the most popular brands, although, better caps in critical locations can often substantially lessen the tendency in many pieces.
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minkybut
AK Member
Those preamps are pretty wild. Never heard of anything like that. I have so many different speakers I like to rotate in and out I need pretty flexible tone control. I'm hoping the HK Citation 11 will fit the bill when I get it. After listening to eq'd music straight or bypassed sounds terribly bland to me. I guess I just don't audiophile quality hearing. I like awesome bass and shimmering crisp highs and mid tat does not sound like one is singing in a barrel. My room also has a concrete floor and plaster walls so not a very dead room at all.
