If you consider the most common electric panels are 150 amps, using 40 amps of that on stereo is a lot. If you had a 2 zone HVAC system you wouldn't have enough space in the panel to power the rest of the house.
MC2.1KW 75th Anniversary
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If you consider the most common electric panels are 150 amps, using 40 amps of that on stereo is a lot. If you had a 2 zone HVAC system you wouldn't have enough space in the panel to power the rest of the house.
80A via four dedicated 20A circuits is what they're saying needs to be made available. I'm only the messenger.
As I said, for those prepared to drop what may well add up to a six figure audio rig, the cost of electrical upgrades is an incidental expense.
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80A via four dedicated 20A circuits what they're saying needs to be made available. I'm only the messenger.
I know you are only the messenger. It stands to reason that anyone who takes the purchase of these amps seriously certainly has the means to build a substation in their garage to power them.
I've learned a lot about electrical sizing for homes over the years. I'm not an electrician but in 40 years building homes I've picked up a lot. And when it came to my own home and my systems my electrician explained to me what was needed and we wired the house accordingly and tested it when complete. Regardless, if you had a 150 amp panel in your home, and added up every electric component or piece of equipment's maximum draw it would far exceed the maximum rated amperage for the panel. For example, if you added a 100 amp sub panel to the existing panel it would only require a 50 or 60 amp breaker. This is because of sizing electric isn't sized by maximum usage, it's sized by mean usage. We simply don't use the maximum amperage all at one time. What's most important, and Damacman hit on this earlier, is sizing of the wiring especially when longer runs of wire comes into play. Then upsizing breakers is important. I understand what McIntosh says in their manual. They have to say that to CYA. I'm just saying practically 80 amps of circuit to power 2 amplifiers would never be needed.
I don't disagree on anything you've stated. These guidelines are probably more to do with the "CYA" than anything else.
damacman
Resident Psycho
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. The guidelines are there to insure you could get the full potential of the amplifiers should the need arise. I applaud McIntosh for including that information.
However, the reality is such that when factoring the duty cycle of the media into the equation, the average power requirement to flash the power guard lamps on peaks is a mere fraction of what the amplifiers require to make full output continuously. My suite of amplifiers was surely power limited at 105 VAC ...
However, the reality is such that when factoring the duty cycle of the media into the equation, the average power requirement to flash the power guard lamps on peaks is a mere fraction of what the amplifiers require to make full output continuously. My suite of amplifiers was surely power limited at 105 VAC ...
I thought I explained it differently than "you can."
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
TL;DR.
Main`s starvation (excessive voltage drop) has a decided effect on the dynamic`s SQ of high quality high bit depth digital recordings !
Especially trying to drive inefficient, but high quality speaker systems, like I discovered upon purchasing my Mc. XRT-22 in 1990, when the playing SPL`s were advanced to realistic levels in my fairly large open plan living room!
These excellent sounding line array speakers couldn`t realize their full potential being powered by one 120 v wired Crown SA-2 power amp, and was readily apparent to the Mc. dealer`s experienced installers, and myself, as soon as I fed the system a very dynamic DDD CD within a few minutes !
Ok, I need to track down and purchase another SA-2, and mono configure both... Better, but the system still lacked the punch that I heard at the dealership after auditioning them for most of the day (my first Mc. speaker purchase ever and at close to $10 grand !) prior, playing the same highest quality CDs there, that I did when I received my pair.
I was powering my Crowns off one of the living room`s string of 15 amp circuits, that I had already un-wire stabbed and wire wrapped around the outlet`s connection screws, like I did to all the house`s outlets before I even moved in a yr. before, so my thoughts were why am I not getting the dynamic impact that I should with all these 2 SS big amp high horse power amps ?
So I started thinking maybe I have to high of a peak demand 120v AC input voltage drop through the living room`s 14ga. wired 15 amp shared outlet circuit ?
So I got out my very trusty HQ very fast responding VIZ brand 120 v plug in AC voltage monitor, and plugged into the next nearby shared outlet in the living room to see how much the voltage of that circuit dropped with the system turned up to the highest SPL that I would listen to sitting on the couch.
That AC line monitor acted like a crazy inverse displaying VU meter, dipping down as low as 10 + volts during high dynamic DDD CD music passages !
Ok, there you have it, I said to myself !
Now, what to do about this dynamic music main`s AC starvation inexpensively ?
I called up my long time very handy man friend, and asked him to help me run a 30 amp 240 v 10ga. circuit with 2 separate outlets to the wall by the amps.
I then had these big Crown amps brought to my bench and I rewired them each for 240v and full factory spec. (I was a authorized Crown service center, at that time) retested them each after I had rewired them plugging into my benches 20 amp 240 v circuit.
Reinstalled them, changing nothing else, but powering them with 240v.
Ran the same three or so DDD CDs with the same cranked up to the maximum listening SPL that would ever listen to !
Well, that did it, "total airiness" to the sound with no perceptive SQ compression!
Some yrs. later in 1997, I decided to retire the getting long in the tooth 1970`s era SA-2s and upgrade to 2 Crown Power Tech 3s to up the power per channel mono configured to 1,500 watts at 8 ohms each after getting special permission from Crown to order the export only, multi input voltage capable version amplifiers for wiring to 240v
I guess I`m tainted/spoiled having been a FOH sound engineer mixing a high powered Bi-amplified HQ components (JBL, EV, etc. Crown, PL, ect.)of my creation PA for 2 yrs. @6 nights a wk. so I had a good experience of nightly hearing live high dynamic music with 3,300 watts RMS output power with a 100A 120V dedicated on stage sub panel circuit fed with zero main`s starvation effects.
My long time friend and next door neighbor, who`s a classically trained flute playing, bat eared, also ex-FOH engineer B-I-L, shares the same dislike of excessive input voltage drop mains starvation compression effects, and we`ve learned to not rely just enough circuit capacity, is good enough, but use our intuition and experience with live music`s dynamics to guide us in providing more than just "predicted/calculated" acceptable based ample voltage drop/available current to power our powerful stereo systems, for best dynamic performance and headroom, but instead trust our bio based built in test equipment (ears).
,
Folks, do as you see fit, as I have and do for me !
Main`s starvation (excessive voltage drop) has a decided effect on the dynamic`s SQ of high quality high bit depth digital recordings !
Especially trying to drive inefficient, but high quality speaker systems, like I discovered upon purchasing my Mc. XRT-22 in 1990, when the playing SPL`s were advanced to realistic levels in my fairly large open plan living room!
These excellent sounding line array speakers couldn`t realize their full potential being powered by one 120 v wired Crown SA-2 power amp, and was readily apparent to the Mc. dealer`s experienced installers, and myself, as soon as I fed the system a very dynamic DDD CD within a few minutes !
Ok, I need to track down and purchase another SA-2, and mono configure both... Better, but the system still lacked the punch that I heard at the dealership after auditioning them for most of the day (my first Mc. speaker purchase ever and at close to $10 grand !) prior, playing the same highest quality CDs there, that I did when I received my pair.
I was powering my Crowns off one of the living room`s string of 15 amp circuits, that I had already un-wire stabbed and wire wrapped around the outlet`s connection screws, like I did to all the house`s outlets before I even moved in a yr. before, so my thoughts were why am I not getting the dynamic impact that I should with all these 2 SS big amp high horse power amps ?
So I started thinking maybe I have to high of a peak demand 120v AC input voltage drop through the living room`s 14ga. wired 15 amp shared outlet circuit ?
So I got out my very trusty HQ very fast responding VIZ brand 120 v plug in AC voltage monitor, and plugged into the next nearby shared outlet in the living room to see how much the voltage of that circuit dropped with the system turned up to the highest SPL that I would listen to sitting on the couch.
That AC line monitor acted like a crazy inverse displaying VU meter, dipping down as low as 10 + volts during high dynamic DDD CD music passages !
Ok, there you have it, I said to myself !
Now, what to do about this dynamic music main`s AC starvation inexpensively ?
I called up my long time very handy man friend, and asked him to help me run a 30 amp 240 v 10ga. circuit with 2 separate outlets to the wall by the amps.
I then had these big Crown amps brought to my bench and I rewired them each for 240v and full factory spec. (I was a authorized Crown service center, at that time) retested them each after I had rewired them plugging into my benches 20 amp 240 v circuit.
Reinstalled them, changing nothing else, but powering them with 240v.
Ran the same three or so DDD CDs with the same cranked up to the maximum listening SPL that would ever listen to !
Well, that did it, "total airiness" to the sound with no perceptive SQ compression!
Some yrs. later in 1997, I decided to retire the getting long in the tooth 1970`s era SA-2s and upgrade to 2 Crown Power Tech 3s to up the power per channel mono configured to 1,500 watts at 8 ohms each after getting special permission from Crown to order the export only, multi input voltage capable version amplifiers for wiring to 240v
I guess I`m tainted/spoiled having been a FOH sound engineer mixing a high powered Bi-amplified HQ components (JBL, EV, etc. Crown, PL, ect.)of my creation PA for 2 yrs. @6 nights a wk. so I had a good experience of nightly hearing live high dynamic music with 3,300 watts RMS output power with a 100A 120V dedicated on stage sub panel circuit fed with zero main`s starvation effects.
My long time friend and next door neighbor, who`s a classically trained flute playing, bat eared, also ex-FOH engineer B-I-L, shares the same dislike of excessive input voltage drop mains starvation compression effects, and we`ve learned to not rely just enough circuit capacity, is good enough, but use our intuition and experience with live music`s dynamics to guide us in providing more than just "predicted/calculated" acceptable based ample voltage drop/available current to power our powerful stereo systems, for best dynamic performance and headroom, but instead trust our bio based built in test equipment (ears).
, Folks, do as you see fit, as I have and do for me !
150a service?
You need to come up to Michigan, where some of our homes have heated driveways (3x 40A/220v), multiple demand water-heaters, heated tile on all floors (all electrical), ... and see some big mains.
I agree that wire-size has more impact than the breaker, and also the length of the run. The nominal draw of the equipment is reasonably low where turn-on inrush is typically the highest draw, and if you really have inefficient speakers you can peak in the high-end of the meters. The filter capacitors typically provide the bulk of fast/short bursts of energy to the speakers and the power input sees less of a spike.
I’m limited by reasonably efficient speakers, they just don’t have the ability to draw that much current.
You need to come up to Michigan, where some of our homes have heated driveways (3x 40A/220v), multiple demand water-heaters, heated tile on all floors (all electrical), ... and see some big mains.
I agree that wire-size has more impact than the breaker, and also the length of the run. The nominal draw of the equipment is reasonably low where turn-on inrush is typically the highest draw, and if you really have inefficient speakers you can peak in the high-end of the meters. The filter capacitors typically provide the bulk of fast/short bursts of energy to the speakers and the power input sees less of a spike.
I’m limited by reasonably efficient speakers, they just don’t have the ability to draw that much current.
Most homes here typically have 150 amp services. I have 150 and a 100 amp sub panel. When I finished my basement it was easier just to add the sub panel down there rather than pull everything back to the garage.
150 amps is plenty for an average sized home with 2 zone HVAC. As they get bigger then we go to 200 amp and above. A lot of the homes I build are beach homes and people go crazy with ductless AC units. Then we need larger services.
I am talking mainly about luxury homes, which in my experience typically have larger than 150A unless they are older homes and not electrically updated.
I feel comfortable assuming that most people who can afford a new system including a pair of MC2.1 Anniversary amplifiers live in luxury homes.
I’m aware that I have been wrong before, I AM married!
I feel comfortable assuming that most people who can afford a new system including a pair of MC2.1 Anniversary amplifiers live in luxury homes.
I’m aware that I have been wrong before, I AM married!
All the homes I build would be considered luxury homes. Real estate in this area on or near the beach is exorbitantly priced. The small bungalow type home is a thing of the past. However lot sizes are small so it's difficult to build large square footage. I just finished one that was 3000 SF and that had a larger service and solar.
I have never had a customer with a special requirement to power anything audio. We do wire for sound but it's mostly Sonos kind of stuff and in ceiling speakers. Cameras are a big thing. Everyone does cameras, Nest thermostats, remote locks, home automation.
I would be the one buyer to ask for electrical upgrades. This was one of my checkoff's for selecting a builder in Sarasota, FL on custom homes. 3000sf 1 floor, 200A sub panel standard, upgrade "4" 20A dedicated circuits in my Audio/Den. The garage will have "2" 20A circuit for Car Charger/Vacuum system, Insulated Block, Impact Windows, Cameras, Audio in house and lanai etc. We took 99% of the options and there was a lot. A stack of MC2.1KW 75th Anniversary would be cheap.
We do tons of electric upgrades. I have just never had a customer that was an audiophile. Just finished one that was a total gut and rebuild that was loaded. The kitchen was 32' long. 100K just for the appliances. Outdoor kitchen, elevator, 5 bathrooms with towel warmers, heated floors, kitchen on the lower level that opened up to the pool, chandelier lift, you name it. That had a big electric service. Electric work alone was over 100k. But they did Sonos and nothing special. I did build a custom cabinet for the Sonos stuff and the routers with built in cooling. I'd love to build a house for a stereo guy.
