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More Fun With Magnavox: The 9300 Series

I used a schematic Batradio sent me. It used the original iron though.
It was mainly the basics like split cathode, etc. But the power supply was different. He tended to use SS rectification, two chokes and higher value filter caps in all his Magnavox PP amps. It's been dead quiet all these years without any problems. I was looking for his drawings he sent me and couldn't find them though.
 
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I’ve been waiting for a Maggie 8600 to rebuild (Dave’s Flea Power project) for a while, but despite many Magnavox consoles coming up near me on FB Marketplace, they are mostly solid-state or the beloved is too expensive. Then yesterday, an Italian Provincial (yuck!) console came up 10 miles away but not much info or pictures. It was $50 and being sold by a moving company. I inquired to see if they could pull the back off and send some pics. Pics come back and to my delight, I see 9302 and lots of tubes, made in Great Brittain tubes! Sold. Then I wondered how much information is on AK about refurbing a Maggie 9302, and there it is 75 pages of Dave Gillespie joy. So I’m off on my next project.

Output tube codes are rX1 (EL84 first production), and B1 (Mullard, Blackburn Works, 1961) dates Feb, May, May & July. The 6EU7s are first production, also Blackburn 1961 dates Apr & May. The rectifier tube is Sylvania Oct 1961.

Those are sure some nice looking Magnavox original tubes you have there. Mine looked just like that, until after testing one it slowly rolled off the front of my work bench and became fairy sparkles on my cement garage floor :eek: They were such a nice matched set too . . .

You can probably sell that 5U4 on ebay now. After you see Dave's mods and switch to a 5AR4 you won't want to look back.
 
I've did searches here on AK for 9302, 9303, 9304's when I rebuilt mine.
That's how I ran into Mark's amp builds.
Some of the threads have schematics posted showing what various people have done with them. I know Mark and others have posted some of them.
I'm using those Russian 6P14P-P's in mine now. I think they sound better than the Mullards I was using. The 6P14P-EV's are the longer hour version.
Rated for 5,000 hours instead of 3,000 hours for the 6P14P's and 6P14P-P's.
 
Those are sure some nice looking Magnavox original tubes you have there. Mine looked just like that, until after testing one it slowly rolled off the front of my work bench and became fairy sparkles on my cement garage floor :eek: They were such a nice matched set too . . .

You can probably sell that 5U4 on ebay now. After you see Dave's mods and switch to a 5AR4 you won't want to look back.
Ya, I wish I had seen his thread before modding mine. But they still sound pretty darn good with the original OPT's.
 
Maybe someone who's been following this all along can tell me: Other than the original two schematics (amp and power supply) Dave posted on Pg 4 of this thread, were there ever any 'updated' revisions posted, or was that really the final product? Yes, I could read all 75 pages, and if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do!! But, as I just found one of these tucked at the back corner of one of my storage shelves, I'm thinking I might just drop all my other projects and go about doing the DG version to the unit I found. I did go through the first 10 pages of this thread again, and I didn't see any changes up to that point, but, with 65 more to go, wouldn't surprise me in the least if a change or two to the original drawing had come out of 'Dave's Lab'!! Thx, Tom
Wharfcreek- You will find my build of the 9300 further up this page, on July 11th. Daves original schematics from page 4 are the best, in my opinion, and will take you to the best place to be with this design. I did read all of the following 75 pages, and in general, from this schematic forward include discussions about several different ways of adding a volume control, then proceeds through a redesign using different output transformers. I really did not like the idea of ripping off and scabbing on different transformers- I stated that if you really wanted to do this, start with a scratch chassis, and do it right. (Then again I like keeping the original look. The intent of Dave's redesign was to remain within the confines of the original chassis and improve some serious shortcomings of the barely adequate original Magnavox design (then he sort of goes on to violate that intent and the chassis, but I think this was mostly in response to poster pressure to do so.)

On the volume control front, the take away is that if you use too high of a resistance pot, at lower volumes the source impedance is too high and you start to lose high frequencies going into the grid of the 6EU7. I used a 10K pot, which will still present an adequately high input impedance to the source (which modern sources have pretty low output impedance now) yet limit the increase in source impedance compared to the 47K series resistor.

There was buried in there also an excellent discussion of how to use only one 6BQ5 socket to characterize the bias behavior of each tube in isolation, allowing you to test each tube in your collection and put together a matched set so the two sides bias equally.

I really encourage anyone wanting to follow Dave's redesign path, so if you have questions, please ask them here as there is a lot of ready knowledge.
 
I've did searches here on AK for 9302, 9303, 9304's when I rebuilt mine.
That's how I ran into Mark's amp builds.
Some of the threads have schematics posted showing what various people have done with them. I know Mark and others have posted some of them.
I'm using those Russian 6P14P-P's in mine now. I think they sound better than the Mullards I was using. The 6P14P-EV's are the longer hour version.
Rated for 5,000 hours instead of 3,000 hours for the 6P14P's and 6P14P-P's.

I was wondering how those Russian 6P14P's sound. Limping on 3 Magnavox and a Sovtek :confused: right now, kinda like walking with a rock in my shoe. Wish I could afford US NOS, but at least cheap matching is better than limping. I see you can get matched quads for pretty reasonable- have you been happy with how they bias up? Any advice is appreciated.
 
I was wondering how those Russian 6P14P's sound. Limping on 3 Magnavox and a Sovtek :confused: right now, kinda like walking with a rock in my shoe. Wish I could afford US NOS, but at least cheap matching is better than limping. I see you can get matched quads for pretty reasonable- have you been happy with how they bias up? Any advice is appreciated.
I use one Ukranian seller for all the Russian tubes I buy. I haven't gotten a dud yet, and his matching is very close. I've bought those and 6P3S-E's along with some Russian versions of the 6SL7 and 6V6 tubes from him and all worked and sounded good.
PM sent
 
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WRAP UP -- Part 1

The modified circuits of the 9300 are posted here, with the following notes and features:

POWER SUPPLY:

This remains relatively unchanged except for five basic points:

1. The extra tuner heater winding has now been configured in an autotransformer connection with the primary winding to reduce the voltage applied to the primary winding to 115 vac, which is the design center voltage for this winding. Voltage applied to the heaters is now within 2% of the target value with typical line voltages of 121-122 vac.

2. The hum pot has been eliminated, and balance resistors used in its place. Use of a hum pot in a basic power amplifier setting typically offers little practical advantage.

3. The rectifier tube has been changed to use a 5AR4.

4. The voltage supply points are re-labeled for the correct modified values, which includes a new dedicated output tube screen grid supply point.

5. A 2A fuse and power switch is included for practicality and safety.

Comment: Because this is a development model, the original good can cap is still in place and in use, providing good service. As a result, the 10 uF section originally used to decouple the phase inverter stage is now used to decouple the screen grids, with a new discrete decoupling cap added to decouple the phase inverter stage. Because the screen grid decoupling cap is so small, no Screen Stability resistors were required in the development model, and are not shown in the pic provided. However, they ARE shown on the amplifier page, since any unit destined for regular service will almost certainly have the can cap replaced, with 40-50 uF being a good practical value to use at this point. With such a value, Screen Stability resistors will be required, and are therefore shown on the schematic.

These changes, along with those made to the output stages, now have the power transformer operating at a very cool temperature. After three hours of use in an open 68F environment, the transformer failed to even reach 120F. With typical power transformer operating temps of 140F or so, this sucker is one cool cookie indeed.


AMPLIFIER:

While the basic topology remains the same, important changes have been made that really improves overall performance significantly. These include:

1. OUTPUT STAGE: Operation of the output stage has been modified to use a simplified form of EFB(tm) for pentode operation. In this scenario, no negative fixed bias supply was readily available, so an EFB cathode regulator was used to provide true fixed bias operation. However, with the advantage of the "Enhanced" element that EFB provides, the optimum operating point is always maintained under all conditions of operation, in spite of power supply fluctuations due to AC power and changing dynamic conditions. This is important, as when the amplifier is developing full power into a 4 ohm load in both channels at the same time, the power supply requirements increase from about 90 ma under quiescent conditions, to nearly 200 ma with 15.5 watts RMS being developed in both channels at once. This causes the B+ to the OPTs to drop some 40 vdc -- and importantly, the screen grids by about 50 volts. This would normally produce a significant shift in the operating point, and greatly increase distortion. But because the EFB cathode regulator controls the bias to the tubes -- which is based on the screen grid voltage supplied to the tubes -- the bias is automatically adjusted accordingly, and maintains the optimum operating point regardless of what the B+ voltages are. The only way that this low distortion performance can be matched with traditional absolute regulation, is to regulate ALL grid and plate potentials, which is an expensive proposition to produce. Also, because the loading conditions require the screen grids to operate at nearly the same DC potential as that of the plates, a simple dropping resistor for the screen grids can be used to power them, with little loss of regulation: Of the 50 volts that they drop in operating voltage between quiescent and full power, only 10 of those volts is due to the dropping resistor, which is rather insignificant. Ultimately however, it matters little, since the EFB arrangement accounts for the full drop in screen voltage under large dynamic conditions.

Now besides completely eliminating the notch distortion and greatly reducing THD in general as discussed in the setup posts, the other huge benefit of EFB operation is that the optimum quiescent operating point of the tubes now falls to just 22 ma per tube, or 44 ma per channel. This means that each tube is dissipating just 7 watts at the plate, or less than 60% of the tube's conservative Design Center rating for plate dissipation. This equates to extremely long tube life -- and the cooler power transformer operation. It is also the reason that in spite of the autotransformer connection of the power transformer's primary winding, the lower quiescent current draw and use of a low drop 5AR4 rectifier tube cause the quiescent B+ voltages to rise to higher than normal levels (although the turn on surge is completely eliminated). But this is of little concern, as maximum voltage ratings for vacuum tubes can -- and are -- often exceeded, which can be very safely done -- as long as the tubes are not operating at or near rated dissipation levels. With the very low dissipation levels in this amplifier, the 6BQ5/EL84 output tubes used showed absolutely no signs of concern, and in fact are operating under much less stress than if only 300 volts were applied to the screen and plate elements, but the tubes idled at 35-37 ma each, as is customary in most traditional cathode bias settings. In this amplifier, as the production of power is elevated, the operating voltages will fall as discussed, so that even under full power conditions, the ratings for the tubes are not exceeded. Therefore, the modified design will work just fine with any version of the 6BQ5 family of tubes you wish to use.

End Part 1. Part 2 will be along shortly.
You are absolutely amazing dcgillespie!
I have a 9302, and a Magnavox 8601. I did a lot to both amps, but did not touch the topology as I thought wanted to keep originally. Unfortunately I did not like the sound of the 9302 no matter what I did to bias points, NFB, screen modes, power supply, coupling caps and all the other normal stuff. I have a much smaller Magnavox 8301, and though far less power output, its Class A SE and it sounded much better in highs and bass. A very clean presentation top to bottom with a nice balanced sound, very clean highs that is quiet linear. While the larger Magnevox 9302, my opinion was not as great. The bass was present, but was a bit sloppy and overaly wooly. The highs where again present, but not very clean or linear. Mids where pretty good, but I still always felt there was something off within the entire audio range when compared to any of my other Tube amplifiers.

I went ahead and built your Floating paraphrase inverter scheme, and its has absolutely transformed this amplifier! Its perfect! I installed first onto one channel, as this gives me a chance to A/B in real time. yup! A complete transformation and clearly different fr response! The highs have transformed into a sparkly, and detailed and all around very balanced. The bass has also transformed far more accurate and detailed. It digs deep and keeps composer, while the other stock channel seems to just loose it a bit. I can feel there is more power output, my Apogees just sing! It now sounds just as good if not better than my 8601, but with more power!!

A quick note for those installing this definite upgrade, you can leave the two 220K resistors in place that go across your 6eu6s/12ax7s. Rip everything else out and built it to dcgillespie schematic, you wont be disappointed!

I just ordered a lm337 and going to try your regulated screen pentode output stage next!!

I do want to install some better OPTs eventually, but currently i'm pretty impressed what these little Magnevox ones can do.
 
I highly recommend doing the whole recipe, as it is all designed to work together. The Enhanced Fixed Bias, or EFB(tm) is where the REST of the magic is- it enabled dropping the bias squeaky lean, and running much more into class B operation - that's what enables the amplifier to have so much more headroom, that it puts out almost as much power into 8 ohms as to 4 ohms. Make sure the 337 can sit flat on the chassis, and use thermal grease, and you will be very happy!
 
and if you're not using one of the insulated tab LM-337, mount it with appropriate insulating hardware. I forget the suffix for the all-plastic one but honestly its the easier way to go here.
 
Actually, no insulating hardware needed. The metal tab on the LM337 is "input", which is GND, Chassis is GND, so only a screw/nut and thermal paste.
 
I wouldn't mind running across another 93xx and do all DG's mods.
I had done mine before he had posted about the mods. Still, it does sound good. A lot was changes though except for the OPT's and power transformer.
 
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Also regarding the capacitors you mention. I've heard it is important to have the top and bottom coupling caps differ by at least a factor of 4 in the original phase inverter circuit. That's why they used such vastly different values. It has something to do with bass stability I believe.

Has to do with low frequency phase shift I believe.

I take a different approach. I use large enough coupling caps to totally eliminate phase shift down to 20Hz as I reason that if the phase shift isn't there it cannot cause problems.
 
With paraphase inverters you have one tube fed through a single cap, and one fed through two caps. The phase shift points of those two caps can't line up otherwise the lower tube ends up not actually being 180 out of phase with the upper and it causes stability and general performance problems. LF response is set by the "upper" cap, the lower cap has to be large enough to not interfere with that setting.


stock design
1744890414065.png

upper tube is an 0.0047 cap into a 509k load.
Lower tube is 0.047 into a 220k load.
Multiple ways of going about this but the quick and dirty method is just R*C to get the time constants. The even lazier way is to drop all of the units and do .0047 * 509 = 2.4, and the lower tube is 10.3, so basically your factor of 4.

The modified design is a little different. It doesn't rely on significantly different time constants to make all of this work properly.

1744890767715.png

Same cap values top and bottom, and the resistive load is very similar. Dave does a far better job explaining this than I can, so this is what he said about it. Long story short, this is a better design without being grossly different.

2. PHASE INVERTER: The phase inverter stage has been modified to operate as a floating paraphase inverter now, as opposed to the simple paraphase design originally used. This was done by making the grid return resistor of the top output tube slightly smaller than that for the bottom tube, and instead of returning the bottom tube's grid return resistor to ground, returning it to the junction of the two resistors that normally comprise the voltage divider making up the grid return resistor package for the top tube in a traditional paraphase design. This forms a NFB connection for the inverter section that provides a number of benefits:
1. The gain of the inverter section remains much more constant in the face of tube and component tolerance variations.
2. The two outputs from the inverter are now well matched over a wide frequency range, since the feedback compensates for both Miller at HFs, and the phase shift contributed by the "extra" coupling cap at LFs, that the bottom output tube sees but the top one otherwise does not.
3. The configuration is much more stable than the traditional paraphase design is with regards to LF stability. As a result, both coupling caps can be made the same value when using a floating paraphase design.
 
I take a different approach. I use large enough coupling caps to totally eliminate phase shift down to 20Hz as I reason that if the phase shift isn't there it cannot cause problems.
Dave addresses that- he does not do this to avoid saturating the OPT's.

Quoting the entire pertinent section from Post #73. (I love how clearly Dave can explain things.) and I also love the floating paraphase inverter as he has implemented here. I think it's a masterwork.

1. The gain of the inverter section remains much more constant in the face of tube and component tolerance variations.
2. The two outputs from the inverter are now well matched over a wide frequency range, since the feedback compensates for both Miller at HFs, and the phase shift contributed by the "extra" coupling cap at LFs, that the bottom output tube sees but the top one otherwise does not.
3. The configuration is much more stable than the traditional paraphase design is with regards to LF stability. As a result, both coupling caps can be made the same value when using a floating paraphase design.
The opportunity was also taken to increase the gain of the phase inverter stage over that used in the original design. Since the overall global NFB used remains unchanged, this then translates into increased input sensitivity (now just .60 vac for full power output), which may be of benefit to some. For those who wish to maintain the original sensitivity level of 1.0 vac, a compensated reduction network is shown on the schematic that should be inserted between the input jack, and the junction of the 47K/470K resistors.
3. NFB/STABILITY: The approach to stabilizing the NFB employed now includes a new active HF compensation loop in the form of a 47 pF cap connected between the plate of the top output tube, and the NFB insertion point at the cathode of the AF amplifier stage. With this additional loop in place, the overall closed loop gain of the entire amplifier is actively controlled at HFs, and since the OPT is not included in this loop, it effectively reduces the HF response of the amplifier so as to be under that of the resonant frequency of the OPT, and thereby eliminating the ring associated with the original design. Used in conjunction with a new step network added to the plate of the AF Amplifier stage, HF stability is greatly improved, with the amplifier now being able to handle capacitive only loads of at least .03 uF. Also, with the dual feedback loops, frequency response is no longer elevated above 10 kHz as in the original design, but now down just .25 db at 20 kHz.
On the low end, the coupling caps have been chosen to intentionally limit response below 40 Hz, so as to minimize saturation of the OPT. But even at this, response at 20 Hz is down only 2 db, being 1 db down at 40 Hz. This represents better than an order of magnitude improvement over the original design, and response that is still better yet than those modifications that use .01/.1 combinations with the stock design. This is possible because of the improved LF stability that the floating paraphase inverter design offers, with the amplifier still showing rapid settling under pulsed conditions.
 
For the stock output transformers yes, but new transformers such as Edcor won't have that problem.

I suppose that I could do a test using a lower value coupling cap and report back the results, however that might be meaningless given my amp is not exactly like the amp he usd.

he phase shift points of those two caps can't line up otherwise the lower tube ends up not actually being 180 out of phase with the upper and it causes stability and general performance problems.

Not sure I understand how that causes instability.

LF response is set by the "upper" cap, the lower cap has to be large enough to not interfere with that setting.

So the lower cap cannot be equal to the upper cap, but has to be large enough not to affect the frequency response for the stock circuit, right?

How does the different phase shift come into play at the lower audio frequencies for the stock circuit?

I do understand about transformer saturation and would only do something like using a large enough cap to eliminate phase shift to 20Hz when a transformer is used that can handle 20Hz without saturating.
 
What ends up happening is the negative feedback ends up not being 180 degrees out of phase on both the positive and negative swings. If the lower cap added say another 20 degrees of shift, you'd get half the wave form at 180 and the other at 200 degrees. The further from 180 degrees out of phase your negative feedback is, the more inclined it is to oscillate. With this it usually won't go into full-blown oscillation but you get half the wave not properly phased and the stability becomes marginal. It also makes the bass weird, instead of a sine wave you get something closer to that off-kilter firing order of a Harley.

If the lower cap is big enough that it doesn't add extra phase shift, then all you have to worry about is setting the value of the upper one to something reasonable so the transformer won't saturate. The cathode bypass cap also plays into that, as the frequency drops, the Z increases and the gain of the output stage drops. Sometimes the value is chosen specifically to limit gain at the bottom end, and making it huge can wind up the gain enough to cause it to go nuts.
 
What ends up happening is the negative feedback ends up not being 180 degrees out of phase on both the positive and negative swings. If the lower cap added say another 20 degrees of shift, you'd get half the wave form at 180 and the other at 200 degrees.

Making both caps large enough to where there's zero phase shift would eliminate that issue provided the output transformer doesn't saturate at the lowest audio frequencies, but that also means increasing the value of the filter caps as I explain later to take full advantage of the better transformer which might necessitate other design changes as well to keep the amp stable and depending on what all has to be done that can get quite expensive and then becomes something more out of reach of people who have only a basic knowledge of tube amps and could make some think twice about using a tube amp.

The further from 180 degrees out of phase your negative feedback is, the more inclined it is to oscillate. With this it usually won't go into full-blown oscillation but you get half the wave not properly phased and the stability becomes marginal. It also makes the bass weird, instead of a sine wave you get something closer to that off-kilter firing order of a Harley.

Thanks for explaining that.


If the lower cap is big enough that it doesn't add extra phase shift, then all you have to worry about is setting the value of the upper one to something reasonable so the transformer won't saturate.

Basically the phase shift the lower cap causes should be the same or less than the phase shift the upper cap causes, right?

The issue there is you then have some phase shift in the lower bass region which can affect how the speaker sounds in the room.

The solution is to use an output transformer that is good to 20Hz without saturating, however that often means the transformer will be relatively expensive.

Another solution is to use a two way active crossover before the amp with the high pass set above the frequency that noticeable phase shift starts to happen then the low pass fed to an amp and sub. That also makes it easier to design or select the main speakers as they no longer have to be flat to 20Hz with the result being a better sounding system.

The cathode bypass cap also plays into that, as the frequency drops, the Z increases and the gain of the output stage drops. Sometimes the value is chosen specifically to limit gain at the bottom end, and making it huge can wind up the gain enough to cause it to go nuts.

Transformer saturation comes into play here as well and the cap needs to be selected to not make that happen or as previously stated use a better output transformer. The cathode bypass cap and coupling cap values are likely selected so that the combined roll off prevents transformer saturation. It could entirely be done with the cathode bypass cap value or coupling cap values, but then it might not be as good and you'd have one stage capable of lower audio frequencies than what is able to be fed to it or vise versa which could affect the stability of the amplifier.

Also the filter cap values can have some effect on the bass response of an amplifier given that if too low of a value is chosen for an amp stage as the audio frequency goes lower a sinewave may start appearing on the B+ line for that stage which has the effect of rolling off the output. In extreme cases it can cause the amp to oscillate at a very low frequency.

As I have discovered with my own Magnavox tube amp it takes time and effort to improve it properly and is definitely best left to those who know full well what they are doing
 
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Yep, heavily working around the limits of the wee stock transformers these have. You can get away with things using better transformers that aren't possible with small console amp parts.

Power supply caps end up limited by the rectifier tube, so there are only so many miracles there too.
 
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