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Most expensive tube amplifiers etc. ;^)

RGA said:
... I like that Peter throws down the gauntlet with the P4 monoblocks "The end result is a circuit with 3 transformers, two super linear Directly Heated Triode gain stages and two Audio Note™ 2 watt tantalum resistors in the signal path, with no signal capacitor in sight, try improving on that for ultimate simplicity!
...[/url]
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I note that in this description there are 3 transformers and no capacitors. I would submit that transformers are as reactive an element as capacitors and have just as much potential for frequency variations as capacitors. Designing and winding fine transformers is probably more difficult then fine capacitors. As a result I'm finding it somewhat difficult to think that circuit the ultimate in simplicity. But that may be just me.

Shelly_D

(And yes, I know I am only addressing one small point in his post. I do not intend this post to address the rest of what he has said and so I don't address it).
 
TerryO said:
Actually, he was asked what those advances since 1960 were. You have chosen to imply that there was an actual subtextual element to the question.
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The subtextual element was there at the beginning of this discussion, when the price of these uber expensive amps was called into question.

Yes I did ask about advances since 1960, since Newman made the "advances in 50 years" statement. To my mind toroidal xfrmers and using SS devices in tube circuits are hardly earth shattering and certainly not worth $600K.
 
ducati_EL34 said:
The subtextual element was there at the beginning of this discussion, when the price of these uber expensive amps was called into question.

Yes I did ask about advances since 1960, since Newman made the "advances in 50 years" statement. To my mind toroidal xfrmers and using SS devices in tube circuits are hardly earth shattering and certainly not worth $600K.
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Thank you. You make my point much more succinctly then I.:arrow:

Can I hire you as a translator?:D
 
ducati_EL34 said:
The subtextual element was there at the beginning of this discussion, when the price of these uber expensive amps was called into question.

Yes I did ask about advances since 1960, since Newman made the "advances in 50 years" statement. To my mind toroidal xfrmers and using SS devices in tube circuits are hardly earth shattering and certainly not worth $600K.
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You're still trying to rationalize 'worth' in a concrete, logical, physical sense. That has nothing to do with why people buy something like this. Worth comes from owning something like this...the 'worth' is that it's one of a kind, made to the standards addressed above, even if there's nothing in it that is actualy worth that much money or that revolutionary. There is nothing logical about it...it's about wants and desires. It's why a Rolex is worth more than a Seiko. The Seiko will keep time just the same, probably better. The metal in Rolex, or IWC or whatever, isn't worth much, the design isn't some mystery, and the skill to make it is certainly a skill but it doesn't accomplish anything that can't be done more cheaply and just as accurately. It is worth money because of what it is, not what it does. In that instance, it's craftsmanship, quality and artistry. Some people with a LOT of money pay a lot of money for such things. I personally don't see anything wrong with it if that's how they want to spend their money. Its just money changing hands, making somebody else that much more wealthy, who might spend it on something more logical. I'd never buy one even if I had a billion dollars, but if that's what somebody wants, more power to them (a lot more power, in wattage, in some cases).
 
JohnVF said:
You're still trying to rationalize 'worth' in a concrete, logical, physical sense. That has nothing to do with why people buy something like this.
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First off there are two discussions here, "why would someone pay that much for XXX?", and "what in this amp is worth $600K?, because someone brought up "advances in technology"


I am not trying to answer the former, at all. I don't care why someone pays a $hit load of money, for some trinket. To the latter someone here made the claim there have been advances. You in your sleep deprived state mentioned the cost of R & D, as well as others. My question was, "what R&D", and "what advances are worth these uber high prices?"

I hope that's clear, it is early and I have not had my coffee. :no:
 
I'm not sure that I brought up advances in technology. Others were insinuating nothing has changed in the tube world. The performance of modern tube amps says differently. I'm 100% with John on this one. The additional worth isn't coming from the significant performance improvement that some modern tube amps offer vintage ones. I just found it a bit of a stretch to think that nothing has improved.
 
I'd bet every thread ever written on high-priced audio gear has the same arc as this one.

They just are, and multiple reasons as to why.
 
dnewma04 said:
I'm not sure that I brought up advances in technology. Others were insinuating nothing has changed in the tube world. The performance of modern tube amps says differently. I'm 100% with John on this one. The additional worth isn't coming from the significant performance improvement that some modern tube amps offer vintage ones. I just found it a bit of a stretch to think that nothing has improved.
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You say that the "...additional worth isn't coming from the significant performance improvement that some modern tube amps offer vintage ones."

I would contend that just because someone wishes to pay these uber prices does not make them worth that much. There is sometimes a great disconnect between what something sells for and what its worth. Selling price is clear and simple, its what two people will agree on for an exchange of goods and or services for a defined payment. Worth is not so clearly defined.

Perhaps an example would help. I just looked at recently closed auction on the Eico HF-81. No matter what your opinion of that particular amp is, we must agree that it is generally well thought of out there judging buy how well they sell on EBay. The current crop of closed listings has them selling between $200 for non - working and $550 for fully functional ones. There was one that was listed at $700 that did not sell. I remember some time ago one of these little 12 watt/channel amps selling for $1000 on Ebay. So, is the amp worth 550, 700, or 1000. Or only 200? I certainly don't think its worth 1000 even though someone with strong desire and more money then sense paid that much for it, but perhaps it is worth in the neighborhood of 450 to 550 since several examples sell in that range.

My point is that selling price does not equal worth.

Shelly_D
 
shelly_d said:
You say that the "...additional worth isn't coming from the significant performance improvement that some modern tube amps offer vintage ones."

I would contend that just because someone wishes to pay these uber prices does not make them worth that much. There is sometimes a great disconnect between what something sells for and what its worth. Selling price is clear and simple, its what two people will agree on for an exchange of goods and or services for a defined payment. Worth is not so clearly defined.

Perhaps an example would help. I just looked at recently closed auction on the Eico HF-81. No matter what your opinion of that particular amp is, we must agree that it is generally well thought of out there judging buy how well they sell on EBay. The current crop of closed listings has them selling between $200 for non - working and $550 for fully functional ones. There was one that was listed at $700 that did not sell. I remember some time ago one of these little 12 watt/channel amps selling for $1000 on Ebay. So, is the amp worth 550, 700, or 1000. Or only 200? I certainly don't think its worth 1000 even though someone with strong desire and more money then sense paid that much for it, but perhaps it is worth in the neighborhood of 450 to 550 since several examples sell in that range.

My point is that selling price does not equal worth.

Shelly_D
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The selling price does not equal what it is worth -to you-.

Worth is entirely subjective. Price is determined by the market and an argument could also be made that selling price is the closest thing we have to worth, as nothing is worth the same to two different people. A very extreme example: on prisoner of war ships in the Pacific in WWII, small cups of water were being traded for gold wedding bands. The subjective worth of something was dictated by contextual circumstance. Elsewhere on the planet water was free. The same is true for almost anything. And when you bring subjective desire into the equation, it gets even more complicated.
 
Considering that these amps are new and cost 120k or 250k, or 600k. It's reasonable to assume that if they sold them, they'd have received near their asking price for each pair sold, therefore, they would be worth approx their retail price. In 5-10 years, if sold new, their worth would have to be reevaluated. Perhaps, they will be so collectible that prices will go up. Maybe, they will be worth 30k. I couldn't possibly guess.
 
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