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Moving from fine line to elliptical

A

A Montreal

Member
Hi all,

This is a continuation of another conversation but with a focus on distortion and sibilance with regard to two cartridges… Ortofon 2M Bronze (my present cartridge) and Nagaoka MP-200 (a cartridge that is making its way across the globe to its new home).

My set up is:

Thorens TD125
SME 3009 Series 2 non-improved
Ortofon 2M Bronze (to possibly be replaced with Nagaoka MP-200)
Graham Slee Accession (testing it out) / Four-tube version of Ear834 clone (on its way across the globe as well to compare against the Accession)
Willsenton R8 (which replaced my trusted Bryston 3B)
B&W DM640 (basically acquired them for free)

I generally shy away from fast, exciting, bright, edgy tones. In my own musical productions, I tend towards smooth sounds that don’t draw too much attention to the upper mids. When it comes time to listening to music, I like to relax and not get assaulted by the upper ranges.

It has been suggested that I replace my 2M Bronze with the MP-200 as it will produce a fuller sounding, perhaps less bright or forward, sonic palette. I would love this. We shall see how I handle the diminishment in definition.

BUT… upon further reading in the last two days, I have discovered that due to the fact that the Nagaoka stylus is elliptical (as opposed to the fine line of the Ortofon), it may end up being more challenging with sibilance and inner groove distortion, both of which don’t sound pleasant… especially to someone who doesn’t enjoy edgy sounds. Up till now I haven’t had issues with sibilance or IGD other than clearly problematic records on which you could SEE the problem.

Any thoughts or experience you might share going between these two cartridges/styluses? Any thoughts or experience going from fine line to elliptical in general? Any experience with issues of sibilance with the MP-200?

Thank you,

Andrew
 
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IIRC, the Nagaoka is a nude .4 x .7 mil "true" elliptical. It looks very similar to a fine line, but has major radius only half as wide and the side radius is slightly thicker (.4 mil vs .3 mil). Sound quality based on these two shapes should be pretty close, but the fine line lasts about twice as long.

I think the cantilever and generator would have a bigger impact on sound when comparing these two cartridges.
 
I have lots of elliptical and hyper elliptical stylus profiles that exhibit no IGD or sibilance if not asked to work with the wrong arm. These profiles have been around for decades, curious why you think this will be an issue.
 
J. Rob said:
IIRC, the Nagaoka is a nude .4 x .7 mil "true" elliptical. It looks very similar to a fine line, but has major radius only half as wide and the side radius is slightly thicker (.4 mil vs .3 mil). Sound quality based on these two shapes should be pretty close, but the fine line lasts about twice as long.

I think the cantilever and generator would have a bigger impact on sound when comparing these two cartridges.
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Thank you for the input. That is reassuring as the Nagaoka has already shipped. Purchased a few days ago, shipped an hour ago.
 
Sgt Shultz said:
I have lots of elliptical and hyper elliptical stylus profiles that exhibit no IGD or sibilance if not asked to work with the wrong arm. These profiles have been around for decades, curious why you think this will be an issue.
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I got the idea simply from reading forums late into the night. I came across at least two people who mentioned the issue. I am glad that it is not a general rule with ellipticals. And I will have it set up on the turntable by a pro. Eventually one day I will learn to set it up myself.
 
A Montreal said:
Hi all,

This is a continuation of another conversation but with a focus on distortion and sibilance with regard to two cartridges… Ortofon 2M Bronze (my present cartridge) and Nagaoka MP-200 (...) I have discovered that due to the fact that the Nagaoka stylus is elliptical (as opposed to the fine line of the Ortofon), it may end up being more challenging with sibilance and inner groove distortion, both of which don’t sound pleasant
Click to expand...

You should not get sibilance nor IGD with any of these cartridge. And you shouldn't get it with a decent cartridge either, even if it has an elliptical.
 
A Montreal said:
I got the idea simply from reading forums late into the night. I came across at least two people who mentioned the issue. I am glad that it is not a general rule with ellipticals. And I will have it set up on the turntable by a pro. Eventually one day I will learn to set it up myself.
Click to expand...

Take your time to do initial alignment and you will not have gross tracking issues with the MP-200.

Which Forums had these MP-200 problems? Did they try to resolve the problems by re-aligning the cartridge? Or did they just give up after the initial attempt?

Thanks! And good luck with the NAK! :thumbsup: :)
 
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It could be that experience issues with an elliptical happens much sooner then with the fine line as they wear out much quicker so issues with tracking begin early on.
 
IGD is going to depend largely on the type of music being played. Lengthy orchestral records ending with loud climaxes pretty much necessitates a ML stylus. Contemporary pop and jazz, with its shorter sides and quiet endings, not so much. The higher cost of a fine line is usually offset by longer playing life, with elliptical having the shortest of any profile.
 
I only have the MP-110 cartridge with a bonded elliptical stylus and I don't hear any Sibilance, or IGD. I really like the cartridge enough to get a MP-200.
 
ripblade said:
IGD is going to depend largely on the type of music being played. Lengthy orchestral records ending with loud climaxes pretty much necessitates a ML stylus. Contemporary pop and jazz, with its shorter sides and quiet endings, not so much. The higher cost of a fine line is usually offset by longer playing life, with elliptical having the shortest of any profile.
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My Grace etc seem to disagree as they flew through the Telarc 1812 Overture canon shots with authority.
 
Sgt Shultz said:
My Grace etc seem to disagree as they flew through the Telarc 1812 Overture canon shots with authority.
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That's roughly 15mins? I'm talking 25mins a side, which is not unusual for classical music. Besides, the canon blasts are not a good test for sibilance or IGD. There could be distortion there and you'd never know by its transient nature.
 
ripblade said:
That's roughly 15mins? I'm talking 25mins a side, which is not unusual for classical music. Besides, the canon blasts are not a good test for sibilance or IGD. There could be distortion there and you'd never know by its transient nature.
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So now back peddling lol, I expected as much.
 
I’m sure I played a few classical discs with the Black3, I do with every cart I’m testing, noticed no IGD, and it’s like sibilance with me, like Ice picks in the eardrums….
 
I did hear IGD with the Nag 110. Not bad but there. I’ve still got it though, because it’s mostly sins of omission as they say.
 
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lsipes1965 said:
I’m sure I played a few classical discs with the Black3, I do with every cart I’m testing, noticed no IGD, and it’s like sibilance with me, like Ice picks in the eardrums….
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I've played more than a few thousand classical albums with many different cartridges. My Grado Blue tracks better than my Nag110, but neither are exceptional. To get exceptional you need ML, preferably on a boron cantilever.
 
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