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moving magnet vs moving coil phono cartridges

mzeitlin3348

mzeitlin3348

See it and Believe
Reading threads in this forum on the differences between MM and MC cartridges, most feel MC cartridges produce a better high end. But can you really hear a difference between these two types of cartridges? And this difference may be an artifact of the design differences between MC and MM. MC, I read, distorts the sound in ways people find appealing. That's not accurate reproduction even if it sounds good.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/shure-v15-iv-phono-cartridge

I have a MM cartridge (Shure V15 type 4) which has outstanding sound. I was under the impression that needle configuration and construction is the most important part of a cartridge.

I am debating whether it is worth it to buy an MC cart. and not hear an improved difference let alone a distorted one.

I am eager to read from people responding to this thread who have experience with both types of cartridges and have developed a preference.
 
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I have my current system in my signature, but I use a Denon DL103 (a LOMC) with a SUT. You can usually find a DL103 for under 3 bills, the SUT will probably start at another 3 and go up from there. Yep, it ain't cheap...

For HOMCs (which have enough output to go into a line-level input) I've heard good things about the Hana EH for around $475, but I've never actually heard it.

Personally, one of the biggest changes in my system was when I went with a LOMC and a SUT, but YMMV.

Good luck—
 
mzeitlin3348 said:
Which MC to buy? They are not cheap, hence my question. Before I buy, would like to read from others on their experience/opinion. No troll baiting intended.
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You seem to put a lot of stock in what "you've read" without any personal experience, we seem to have a lot of this going on here lately.

As an example:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...woofer-small-room.907002/page-4#post-13637567

As such do some research here, plenty of information within these virtual walls for your reading enjoyment.
 
Right now there's a huge bargain on the Denon DL301 MKII at $265, this cartridge retails for $399 and a bargain at that price. But here's the thing, without knowing your table it's impossible to make any recommendation.

We get a lot of these kinds of threads started by those too cheap to purchase whatever, then insist what they have is just as good without any experience to base their opinion on. Are you going to be one of those?
 
I would love to see an old idea resurrected. The Pickering/Stanton low output MM or MI cartridge revived. User replaceable styli, and LOMC quality, the Dyslexic Moving Coil aka Moving Coil turned inside out. An idea who's time is way overdue and for practical phonophiles. Audio-Technica, Ortofon, are you listening?
 
I understand the reservations for something that is seriously discussed and perhaps hyped for someone having personal experience. I confess I was snob of MC carts 30-40 years ago when I first read about them in hifi magazines. I recall my reaction on reviews of the Koetsu back then. It was indeed a hand crafted gem and indeed had to be expensive for being hand crafted and so scarce. But did that make any difference in sound?

Back then I could not really get satisfied from the playback of my almost non-existent system. I was messing around with a Dual 1009 that had seen better days and a couple of carts. I spent what amounted to huge cash for a school boy to get a Stanton 681-EEE expecting miracles and got nothing. The Shure M44MG that came with the TT and had almost the same age as me sounded subtly better.

This is where I left things in limbo until 2008 when I revisited the matter. And by accident and luck, I got my first decent TT equipped with an MC cart, an Ortofon MC20MkII Super. The sound was so good that I came back to analog and turntable specifically as a source.

Given a decent platform to mount the cart, different carts will sound different. And it's not just the carts. It's the styli as well. Take the "cheap" Ortofon OM5, OM10, OM20 (it gets expensive above that...). I can really hear the difference in sound between the OM10 and OM20 styli on the same cart mounted on the same turntable. It's not a sweeter sound full of artefacts, it's a cleaner sound, less harsh, more balanced with less distortion.

Coming back to the MC/MM sound difference question...
I have never listened to a Koetsu. But I have listened and own a decent range of Ortofon MC carts (and one Technics one).
In general - for whatever that is worth - you can expect an MC cart to sound cleaner and more revealing than a similarly priced MM cart. I'm certain the best and most expensive MM cart would rival an average MC variant, but one needs to compare similar level items, right?

Is the difference so great to my ears? Well, I would say that I'd rather get a hyper eliptical MM than a plain eliptical MC. And to be able to identify the differences, you need to have a decent recording on a decent condition record. Many LPs are mastered and pressed to a level that really won't allow the differences to be revealed between good and average carts.
 
SaSi said:
I understand the reservations for something that is seriously discussed and perhaps hyped for someone having personal experience. I confess I was snob of MC carts 30-40 years ago when I first read about them in hifi magazines. I recall my reaction on reviews of the Koetsu back then. It was indeed a hand crafted gem and indeed had to be expensive for being hand crafted and so scarce. But did that make any difference in sound?

Back then I could not really get satisfied from the playback of my almost non-existent system. I was messing around with a Dual 1009 that had seen better days and a couple of carts. I spent what amounted to huge cash for a school boy to get a Stanton 681-EEE expecting miracles and got nothing. The Shure M44MG that came with the TT and had almost the same age as me sounded subtly better.

This is where I left things in limbo until 2008 when I revisited the matter. And by accident and luck, I got my first decent TT equipped with an MC cart, an Ortofon MC20MkII Super. The sound was so good that I came back to analog and turntable specifically as a source.

Given a decent platform to mount the cart, different carts will sound different. And it's not just the carts. It's the styli as well. Take the "cheap" Ortofon OM5, OM10, OM20 (it gets expensive above that...). I can really hear the difference in sound between the OM10 and OM20 styli on the same cart mounted on the same turntable. It's not a sweeter sound full of artefacts, it's a cleaner sound, less harsh, more balanced with less distortion.

Coming back to the MC/MM sound difference question...
I have never listened to a Koetsu. But I have listened and own a decent range of Ortofon MC carts (and one Technics one).
In general - for whatever that is worth - you can expect an MC cart to sound cleaner and more revealing than a similarly priced MM cart. I'm certain the best and most expensive MM cart would rival an average MC variant, but one needs to compare similar level items, right?

Is the difference so great to my ears? Well, I would say that I'd rather get a hyper eliptical MM than a plain eliptical MC. And to be able to identify the differences, you need to have a decent recording on a decent condition record. Many LPs are mastered and pressed to a level that really won't allow the differences to be revealed between good and average carts.
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Here's the thing, I have several highly regarded MM/MI cartridges like the Pickering XV15 1200E, a Grace F8-L10 Advanced Luminal Trace 10th anniversary edition, Grado Reference Platinum, etc etc.

All outstanding cartridges, but I prefer the SQ of my Denon DL301, it's clear presentation is more akin to what I hear from digital playback, but analog better lol.

To the OP, "You don't know what you don't know eh?"
 
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A high quality MC with high end stylus ( shibata/fine line etc) should sound better all around than a high end MM (shure v15 type 4) . But, a lower end MC might be a wash ( dynavector 10x ) . I think i would stick with the v15 in that comparison.
I enjoy all the cartridges i have. Empire, shure, but by a wide margin my koetsu rosewood is superior in every aspect.
I use a pr of altec/peerless 4722 sut’s.
The cost difference is substantial. The MC requires a much different tonearm setup ( added 7gram weight to head) .
If you want to hear the best , it is a high end MC with An outstanding SUT.
I have tried outboard pre pre amps and they don’t compare to a high quality SUT in my experience.
This assumes the rest of your system is also up to the task.
I find if the speakers and amplification are high end , you'll hear more difference in every part of the signal chain.
So, keep a balanced system. Synergy is key . The right type of speakers for the power amp etc.
 
Most high end MC carts sound best with heavier tonearms . In my experience. You can add weight to a lighter arm , ittock, jelco etc. to get it to work well with MC carts.
I hear a lot of people like the Denon. But i never tried it. I have tried a few others though. Entry level MC , while they were good, had a different presentation , i would not necessarily say they were better than a nicer MM with a Shibata/ SAS/microridge/fine line, etc tip.
In theory the MC with less swinging weight should track and sound better.
 
mzeitlin3348 said:
Reading threads in this forum on the differences between MM and MC cartridges, most feel MC cartridges produce a better high end. But can you really hear a difference between these two types of cartridges?..MC, I read, distorts the sound in ways people find appealing. That's not accurate reproduction even if it sounds good....I am eager to read from people responding to this thread who have experience with both types of cartridges and have developed a preference.
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mzeitlin3348 said:
...would like to read from others on their experience/opinion. No troll baiting intended.
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You already read threads on the topic but you don't believe them. What good will reading more do? You're just trolling. :thumbsdown:
 
With a Fine line or Micro Ridge profile LOMC spinning a really good pressing of a violin concerto the difference between a MC cart and a MM cart is noticeable, with a few exceptions. There are some really good MI's and MM's that can sound as good, but they are pricey as well.

I just picked up a strain gauge cart that I have yet to set up. From what I have read they can sound very good.
 
Like all things audio, excellent is within reach and exceptional is very expensive.

I think the MC magic starts with cartridges like the Dynavector 17D3 which has a fine line stylus and a boron cantilever coupled with a low mass coil assembly and very linear suspension.

But like anything, setup and associated components are critical factors in the overall sound.

Everything about MC is harder except the phono cable capacitance doesn’t matter as much as it does with MM carts.

Another disadvantage of MC carts is they have output energy and a super-sonic resonance that can extend past 100 kHz. MM carts seldomly go over 40kHz because of the natural low-pass filtering effect of cable capacitance in parallel with a high internal-generator inductance. The high frequency energy from MC carts can and does overload poorly designed phono preamps resulting in strong sibilants that can only be tamed by reducing the load resistance actress the cartridge. This is also one reason why SUT’s can sound better than a preamp as they have reasonable HF response that damps out the cartridge resonance.

So probably for $4K for an MC cart and step up transformer or good MC preamp you can beat out your Shure.

That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to try one of the lower cost MC options like the Hana as they are prettty good in their own right and for sure they will be different. They may surprise you.
 
Frank Sol said:
I love my Grado M2+ w/8MZ

When dialed-in correctly I'm very Happy :)
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The 8MZ is a nice stylus, sounds great on my G1 and Prestige Blue, but the Reference Platinum it's not. Picked up the 8MZ to replace my damaged wood body in hopes it would be as schveet, it wasn't, this us what led me to the Grace cartridges for my Grace arm.
 
Well, just to be clear, MC carts will only sound good with a quad-wrapped, titanium-dipped power cord that ensures the most effective positive reverse-electron flow within the dynamic quantum field interaction of your local power grid. ;)

(Sorry, we all get frustrated with these kinds of threads, sometimes...I guess it's just my turn :rolleyes:)
 
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OP has nice system sufficient to suggest honest question versus unwelcome trolling. To achieve improvement over V15 fitted with superlative SAS stylus require substantial expenditure. If interested to make this step suggest to consider Koetsu or Kiseki.

W9TR said:
I think the MC magic starts with cartridges like the Dynavector 17D3 which has a fine line stylus and a boron cantilever coupled with a low mass coil assembly and very linear suspension
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17D3 magic stems from diamond cantilever versus boron. Prior to that they use ruby. Also for V15 SAS/R (ruby) deliver satisfying result.
 
Grenadeslio said:
The 8MZ is a nice stylus, sounds great on my G1 and Prestige Blue, but the Reference Platinum it's not. Picked up the 8MZ to replace my damaged wood body in hopes it would be as schveet, it wasn't, this us what led me to the Grace cartridges for my Grace arm.
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We may have communicated via messaging about this. I also have an 8MZ and Platinum woody. Needlestein redid the woody with a nude .2x.7 on a titanium cantilever and there is no comparison. It’s the best sounding cartridge I own by far. It is very detailed and dynamic.
Regarding the differences between MM and MC (Grados are MI), I can’t say with any direct experience because I haven’t ever used a MC in my system. When I have listened to the lower priced MCs in other systems it wasn’t as enjoyable, as involving. The high end was more extended but maybe spitty. The delivery wasn’t as smooth.
 
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