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moving magnet vs moving coil phono cartridges

The only way anyone can know for sure if they like the sound of MC carts is to listen to a few. If you generally like the sound, you can say that you like the sound of MC carts. That's not the same as liking MC carts. They can be fussy about set-up, can require more/better ancillary gear to achieve their potential, generally cost more than a MM with similar stylus and performance(there are exceptions, of course), but, most importantly, the stylus is generally not replaceable. When the stylus is done, so is the cart. Again, there are exceptions, and many choose to have a new diamond installed and/or a new cantilever stub grafted. In general, though, MC cartridges are considered expendable, if not quite disposable, items.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. For my tastes, at this time, a MM with a HE stylus does everything I need for the music I listen to most. MC is very likely in my future, but it's an unnecessary luxury at this time.
YMMV...
 
justjed2 said:
MC cartridges are considered expendable, if not quite disposable, items.
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I don't know anyone that disposes of a MC cartridge. Even a Denon DL-103 with a busted off cantilever fetches an easy 100 bucks. Send it to VAS in Cliffwood NJ and he can replace the cantilever with a elliptical stylus installed for roughly 150 bucks.
So for roughly 250 bucks your into a cart that out performs a stock DL-103 and cost a lot less than a new DL-103.
If by chance you have a shoe box full of old worn out MC carts I'll gladly pay you to ship them to me. Heck, I'll take just one of your old MC carts if your tossing it.
On higher end MC carts it's accepted practice and considered normal to have them rebuilt and upgraded. Nobody throws those out.

BillWojo
 
I've heard the Hana carts, and they would be a good starting point. First letter of the model is the stylus typ, and the second is the output. E = elliptical; S = Shibata; M = micro-something-or-other (basically a line contact type). H = high output, L = low. EH, EL, SH, SL, MH, ML are the six models. Sadly, my first demo was by the now defunct Needle Doctor. I gladly would have bought one from them.

W9TR said:
Thanks for the correction! I think my 17D3 must have a Ruby cantilever.
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Maybe if it was a retip. A little decoder for ya... ;)

17 D 3...17 is 1.7mm cantilever length (!), D is diamond, 3 = third generation.
23 R: 2.3mm cantilever, R = ruby.
19 A: 1.9mm cantilever, A = aluminum.

Always thought they were the coolest looking carts! I had a 17D3 and sent it in for an inspection. Dynavector decided they wanted to replace it with a new one, but supplies had run out and they sent an XX2 in its place. I do like the XX2 but liked the 17D3 better. Even though it was a pistol to try and align properly. :D The 17D4 is now out, but costs substantially more than the 17D3 did.

Blewpernt said:
I only wish I actually like the Audio-Technica house sound. But I don’t. :(. Not for my ears. I’m much happier with a Grado Statement Sonata, which confoundedly costs more for a lot less in terms of materials and workmanship. But it is all about the ears anyway. Right?
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I wasn't a fan of the bright 440MLa I heard, and even my grandfather's AT cart from the mid 70s was a little too forward (compared to the Shure M44-7 that it replaced). But my AT-ART7 is nicely balanced throughout the range. No complaints, and it out-tracks the Dynavector XX2 that I own. I'm thinking of getting ahold of a Nagaoka MP-500 for a change of pace, but we'll see what happens with the economy first.
 
@BillWojo: Shows how important detail can be. Wasn't trying to be terribly precise, but I probably should have specified 'low-end' moving coils. As I understand it, they're often more expensive to re-tip than to replace. I've never used MC personally, and I hope it didn't sound as if I was trying to talk anyone out of anything. As I mentioned, I am looking at moving into low-end MC carts. Mentioning the downsides and still wanting to make that move myself is an informed decision, based on objective analysis. I hope. Be that as it may, I don't feel slighted by my MM cart/stylus combos. But a MC cart is something I plan on getting later this year, economy permitting.
 
After trying different MM & MC Cartridges and comparing them to each other I seemed to like the MC Cartridges better. I have found when comparing a MM Cartridge to a MC Cartridge that are in the same price range I would get better sound from the MC Cartridge most of the time. There is a few MM Cartridges that hold their ground and I would prefer over certain MC Cartridges that are in the same price range. After around the $1,500 you really don’t have any MM Cartridges to compare to MC Cartridges and that always made me wonder why. I don’t know the science behind them I just listen to them and whatever my ears tell me sounds good I’ll stick to it. As of lately I have really been liking Moving Iron Cartridges and rarely use my MC Cartridges or MM Cartridges.
 
justjed, the Denon DL-103 is considered by many to be a low end cart. It was released in 1962 by Denon as a broadcast cart. It turned out to be a very popular cart with everybody and is still in production almost 60 years later. It uses a conical stylus, not the best for retrieving small details but what it does better than most carts is sound so musical. It has a huge following and can be modded and upgraded when it wears out or gets broken.
Some folks have a heavy bias against it and will tell you that nothing less than a MC cart costing at least a thousand dollars is needed to get the full benefit of an MC cart. Just ignore them.
I have read several stories of folks who started with a DL-103 and moved up to mega dollar carts. When the mega dollar cart needed service they installed the lowly DL-103 to keep the music rolling. It's funny when they say just how good that old Denon sounds, it's just so musical. And than there are the audiophiles that have tried everything and just returned back to the DL-103 for good. So it has it's detractors but it has a huge fan base as well.
I just looked and there is a brand new DL-103 on that popular auction site for a great buy it now price.

BillWojo
 
BillWojo said:
justjed, the Denon DL-103 is considered by many to be a low end cart. It was released in 1962 by Denon as a broadcast cart. It turned out to be a very popular cart with everybody and is still in production almost 60 years later. It uses a conical stylus, not the best for retrieving small details but what it does better than most carts is sound so musical. It has a huge following and can be modded and upgraded when it wears out or gets broken.
Some folks have a heavy bias against it and will tell you that nothing less than a MC cart costing at least a thousand dollars is needed to get the full benefit of an MC cart. Just ignore them.
I have read several stories of folks who started with a DL-103 and moved up to mega dollar carts. When the mega dollar cart needed service they installed the lowly DL-103 to keep the music rolling. It's funny when they say just how good that old Denon sounds, it's just so musical. And than there are the audiophiles that have tried everything and just returned back to the DL-103 for good. So it has it's detractors but it has a huge fan base as well.
I just looked and there is a brand new DL-103 on that popular auction site for a great buy it now price.

BillWojo
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I agree and think the Denon DL-110 is better than some Cartridges that are 3x times it price. Both MM and MC Cartridges. It was one of the first MC Cartridges that I really enjoyed.
 
justjed2 said:
@BillWojo: Shows how important detail can be. Wasn't trying to be terribly precise, but I probably should have specified 'low-end' moving coils. As I understand it, they're often more expensive to re-tip than to replace. I've never used MC personally, and I hope it didn't sound as if I was trying to talk anyone out of anything. As I mentioned, I am looking at moving into low-end MC carts. Mentioning the downsides and still wanting to make that move myself is an informed decision, based on objective analysis. I hope. Be that as it may, I don't feel slighted by my MM cart/stylus combos. But a MC cart is something I plan on getting later this year, economy permitting.
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Well low end moving coils run about $400, can be retipped with a nude elyptical for $150, bonded for $75. Or take the opportunity to have an exotic profile stylus/cantilever installed and upgrading without the expense of purchasing another cartridge. So why would you throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Added to that, there are those that feel a removable stylus isn't the best for SQ and prefer even MM/MI designs that also aren't removable.

I should also say they're no more difficult to install or setup, don't cost more for similar performance as mm, etc, your bias against something you admittedly have never tried is rather funny.

I suggest you take a look at the Denon DL301 MKII, retail $399, I see them on eBay for $299 with full factory warranty, and over $600, but why pay more eh? I think you'll never look back.

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FWIW, I equally enjoy my MC and MM carts. Each cart, whether MM or MC, brings a different flavor to the table.

Can’t really say one is better than the other on the sole MM/MC differentiation. If I was forced to decide to pick only one and be left astray on a deserted island, I’d choose the Ortofon moving irons (LM, OM, 2M) for their overall balanced tonality, when correctly loaded (capacitance).

The whole MM vs MC debate going on in several online forums is futile and takes you nowhere. You are the only one who can decide what sounds best for you, in your system, and for your personal musical tastes.

Cheers,
Luis
 
Right now I am listening to my Lenco with a AT3600l sounds amazing. So much nonsense spoke by internet experts on this topic. The AT3600l and the Lenco are never going to worry my best cart and turntable, but this combo sound fab and loving it.
Chris
 
The stylus quality and cantilever are hugely important, IME.

Boron cantilever with ultra fine diamond cuts are only on my MC cartridges, but this post has made me want to hear what they sound like on a quality moving magnet cartridge. One day, maybe...

But the other thing is that non removable styli probably do improve the sound quality slightly, just by not having any extraneous movement between cart and needle assembly.
 
I posted earlier in this thread but......

Having Needlestein put the nude tombstone on titanium on my Grado Woody may be the best thing I’ve done in 40+ years listening to music. The clarity of imaging; width, depth and height of the soundstage are better than any MM I’ve tried. It’s very dynamic and musical. It may be that the non-removable styli and the way the entire cartridge is glued into the wood are factors. I do know, it’s much nicer than my Grado 8mz.

The original question here is whether MM or MC is better. Joe Grado patented the stereo MC cartridge in 1959 yet moved on to the Moving Iron design. Regardless of his reasoning, I always liked Grados and the Woody was limited only by the cantilever and stylus.
 
I just recently got my first taste of MC cart with what I guess is a low-to-mid level cart (JVC MC-100 ii EB, berylium cantilever) and I have to say, I'm really impressed. clear and open, fast glassy sound and extremely dynamic, and the soundstage is just amazing. the center channel is way in front of the speakers and you truly feel like the singer is there in the room.

Now I haven't tried my Nagaoka MP-200 on my new table yet, and can't wait to try it, since I found that cart really nice on my SL-D2. But my new table is better so should reap more benefits from it. Wouldn't mind trying an MP-500 too, must be pretty amazing cart!

I do have an AT3600L and I thought it was superbly well balanced(it totally nails that) and great fun to listen to. Also can't wait to try that one on my new TT. maybe I'll even order a VividLine stylus for it, for when I want same sound signature but faster detail retrieval. But the stock cart is fun regardless
 
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doctor fuse said:
The stylus quality and cantilever are hugely important, IME.

Boron cantilever with ultra fine diamond cuts are only on my MC cartridges, but this post has made me want to hear what they sound like on a quality moving magnet cartridge. One day, maybe...

But the other thing is that non removable styli probably do improve the sound quality slightly, just by not having any extraneous movement between cart and needle assembly.
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Jico make a MM with a nude sas on a fine boron cantilever and it sounds subilme, I bought mine a few weeks ago. I also have a vintage Technics 205cmk3 which is one of the lowest moving mass carts of all time , the 100 was lower, but both have much lower moving mass than MC carts. I have original stylus and a Jico sas with boron cantilever, both are fantastic.
Chris
 
HighFi.ED said:
After trying different MM & MC Cartridges and comparing them to each other I seemed to like the MC Cartridges better. I have found when comparing a MM Cartridge to a MC Cartridge that are in the same price range I would get better sound from the MC Cartridge most of the time. There is a few MM Cartridges that hold their ground and I would prefer over certain MC Cartridges that are in the same price range. After around the $1,500 you really don’t have any MM Cartridges to compare to MC Cartridges and that always made me wonder why. I don’t know the science behind them I just listen to them and whatever my ears tell me sounds good I’ll stick to it. As of lately I have really been liking Moving Iron Cartridges and rarely use my MC Cartridges or MM Cartridges.
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There are a lot of 1500 dollar plus MI carts, the Decca for example is 1800 dollars, and go and check Soundsmith cart prices or the top woodie line of Grado these are both not MC but MI. It is easier to get low moving mass with MI, but as I pointed out in post above it is possible to get extremely low moving mass with MM too.
I recently had to rearrange my turntables as I bought another one so I had to make one just for moving coil as distance to preamp is a little longer than I like. MC is not affected by capacitance was my other reasoning and also there is a short run then a head amp then another short run to main preamp so again reasoning for MC on this turntable. Last night I fitted my Gas sleeping beauty which is a lovely MC to this turntable and after spending the last weeks listening to my Jico and my vessel and 205cmk3 right away the accentuated highs that seem to come with all MC's was the first thing I noticed as the stylus touched the vinyl. I think this is possibly the reason some like MC. I often wonder if those with the most money to spend on MC are at an age that they enjoy a cart with raising highs as their ears are lacking in this respect as I have a lot of MC carts and they are all toppy in the highs and this trend is well reported on forums too.
I too am most happy listening to MI and more recently MM since I discovered the 205cmk3 and the lovely Jico MM.
Chris
 
Nagaokas are MI right? so i guess that's another non-mc with boron cantilever and fine-ish stylus cut.
I have no idea how low it's moving mass is though.

At $750 USD, it's affordable for those types of features I guess
 
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Final_Baton said:
Nagaokas are MI right? so i guess that's another non-mc with boron cantilever and fine-ish stylus cut.
I have no idea how low it's moving mass is though.

At $750 USD, it's affordable for those types of features I guess
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Yes it is MI, I have an mp500 in my collection lovely cart.
Chris
 
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