moving magnet vs moving coil phono cartridges

[cdfac]

...
So probably for $4K for an MC cart and step up transformer or good MC preamp you can beat out your Shure.
...

that's a pretty extreme viewpoint. i will counter with a less-extreme one:

i once had a Shure V15-V with a TOTL JICO stylus on a Morinified AR-XB table through an all-world Stax preamp, and then later an AT-OC9/MLII MC cart on a Sony PS-X7 table through a Yamaha A-1 integrated's built-in MC stage (which is also very good, especially in DIRECT mode) -- and i unequivocally preferred the latter. it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, mind you, but i think it helps toss the idea of $4k as a magic number, assuming you weren't just being facetious.

 

[cafe latte]

Reading threads in this forum on the differences between MM and MC cartridges, most feel MC cartridges produce a better high end. But can you really hear a difference between these two types of cartridges? And this difference may be an artifact of the design differences between MC and MM. MC, I read, distorts the sound in ways people find appealing. That's not accurate reproduction even if it sounds good.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/shure-v15-iv-phono-cartridge

I have a MM cartridge (Shure V15 type 4) which has outstanding sound. I was under the impression that needle configuration and construction is the most important part of a cartridge.

I am debating whether it is worth it to buy an MC cart. and not hear an improved difference let alone a distorted one.

I am eager to read from people responding to this thread who have experience with both types of cartridges and have developed a preference.

MC don't do anything better than decent mm or mi.
Much is related to moving mass, it is a common belief that mc are the better cart as they have the lowest moving mass hence better top end.. Not true the lowest ever moving mass cart was moving magnet not moving coil. I own one of the lowest moving mass carts myself which is the Technics EPC 205cmk3, I have maybe 60 carts and this moving magnet is utterly stunning.
My fav cart ever is London super gold which is MI and VERY low moving mass, it does not even have a cantilever. This cart is almost like listening to a live performance.
Nothing wrong with mc, I have many, but they are not my faves. Check mi from Soundsmith, check the l.p. gear vessel range, check Carrot Brothers or Jico carts, Decca or Nag mp500, so many great carts are not mc.
Chris

 

[W9TR]

that's a pretty extreme viewpoint. i will counter with a less-extreme one:

i once had a Shure V15-V with a TOTL JICO stylus on a Morinified AR-XB table through an all-world Stax preamp, and then later an AT-OC9/MLII MC cart on a Sony PS-X7 table through a Yamaha A-1 integrated's built-in MC stage (which is also very good, especially in DIRECT mode) -- and i unequivocally preferred the latter. it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, mind you, but i think it helps toss the idea of $4k as a magic number, assuming you weren't just being facetious.

The next part of my original post was:
“That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to try one of the lower cost MC options like the Hana as they are pretty good in their own right and for sure they will be different. They may surprise you.”

So, no, I was’t being facetious. I was expressing an opinion based on personal experience. Just like your personal experience with a V-15 and an OC9.

Whatever you have sounds awesome up to the point that you hear something better.

 

[MisterDK]

that's a pretty extreme viewpoint. i will counter with a less-extreme one:

i once had a Shure V15-V with a TOTL JICO stylus on a Morinified AR-XB table through an all-world Stax preamp, and then later an AT-OC9/MLII MC cart on a Sony PS-X7 table through a Yamaha A-1 integrated's built-in MC stage (which is also very good, especially in DIRECT mode) -- and i unequivocally preferred the latter. it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, mind you, but i think it helps toss the idea of $4k as a magic number, assuming you weren't just being facetious.

That AT-OC9ML/II is a very good sounding cartridge - and not just for the money.
Listening to one may make many folks think differently about how an inexpensive MC sounds.

 

[Ken Boyd]

The next part of my original post was:
“That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to try one of the lower cost MC options like the Hana as they are pretty good in their own right and for sure they will be different. They may surprise you.”

So, no, I was’t being facetious. I was expressing an opinion based on personal experience. Just like your personal experience with a V-15 and an OC9.

Whatever you have sounds awesome up to the point that you hear something better.

My Shure V-15 didn't last long on any of my tables. I much preferred other LOMC carts in the less than 400 dollar range, and the Grace F9 Ruby was by far more favorable to my taste. Even the Grado Woody Sonata Statement was much better sounding.

Actually I can't recall a Shure cart that I like.

 

[cafe latte]

My Shure V-15 didn't last long on any of my tables. I much preferred other LOMC carts in the less than 400 dollar range, and the Grace F9 Ruby was by far more favorable to my taste. Even the Grado Woody Sonata Statement was much better sounding.

Actually I can't recall a Shure cart that I like.

I never liked the Shure V-15 either. Plenty of MM though I do like., still dont have a Grace F9 yet though.
Chris

 

[billyz]

You can spend as much as you can imagine on a MC cartridge.
I paid $1500 for my koetsu rosewood and less than $200 for my diy SUT.
Not peanuts but a lot less than $4000.
I do like the shure V15 iv , mine has a jico SAS stylus now. It is very good and i would be happy with it. But the koetsu is another thing entirely , better in every way. Also much more demanding in setup and tonearm matching. But worth it,

 

[cafe latte]

You can spend as much as you can imagine on a MC cartridge.
I paid $1500 for my koetsu rosewood and less than $200 for my diy SUT.
Not peanuts but a lot less than $5000.
I do like the shure V15 iv , mine has a jico SAS stylus now. It is very good and i would be happy with it. But the koetsu is another thing entirely , better in every way. Also much more demanding in setup and tonearm matching. But worth it,

No MC I have bought yet comes close to my MI Decca super gold. I have a Grado statement reference (low output) which gets quite close but the Decca still wins. I have a vintage MM Technics 205cmk3 with both original stylus and a Jico, this was one of the lowest moving mass carts ever, lower than most MC carts despite being MM. This is scary good with either stylus. MC is not the only way up, look at Soundsmith carts (MI) many costing way more than your MC. There is a false opinion that MC is the only high end cart and this is just not true. Love my MC's just saying many roads to Nirvana.
Chris

 

[vinyl1]

I can attest that the new Audio Technica is really something special. I got to hear one of the first ones, before it was available to buy, on the basement system at the VPI House.

Our host was playing records with one of his favorite cartridges, the Lyra Atlas, but it was obvious the cartridge needed a rebuild. So he swapped armwands and put on the AT. We were blown away by the improvement, even before he told us that the AT was going to sell for less than a tenth of the price of the Atlas.

 

[Mr Boochie]

I can attest that the new Audio Technica is really something special. I got to hear one of the first ones, before it was available to buy, on the basement system at the VPI House.

Our host was playing records with one of his favorite cartridges, the Lyra Atlas, but it was obvious the cartridge needed a rebuild. So he swapped armwands and put on the AT. We were blown away by the improvement, even before he told us that the AT was going to sell for less than a tenth of the price of the Atlas.

I like the wide range of cartridges which Audio-Technica offers. Be nice to have a sample of each.

I'm using their AT-33Sa, right now. No complaints. For my system & my ears, the VM-760SLC was a bit too bright.

I found the Nagaoka MP-200 is very nice on my Sony.

 

[cafe latte]

I like the wide range of cartridges which Audio-Technica offers. Be nice to have a sample of each.

I'm using their AT-33Sa, right now. No complaints. For my system & my ears, the VM-760SLC was a bit too bright.

I found the Nagaoka MP-200 is very nice on my Sony.

View attachment 1821201

Love my MP-500 too..
Chris

 

[MarkNC]

I would love to see an old idea resurrected. The Pickering/Stanton low output MM or MI cartridge revived. User replaceable styli, and LOMC quality, the Dyslexic Moving Coil aka Moving Coil turned inside out. An idea who's time is way overdue and for practical phonophiles. Audio-Technica, Ortofon, are you listening?

I think you are absolutely correct about low-output moving magnets. I have a Pickering XLZ7500, and find it it has many of the attributes of moving coils, such as excellent resolution and depth, but a very smooth top end, without the bit of peakiness that you sometimes have with moving coil. Plus, a user-replaceable stylus assembly. I'm fortunate enough to have several OEM stylus assemblies, but I suspect these qualities would be present with some of the better aftermarket units. It would be great if, as you said, manufacturers picked up on this concept; it's easy to do, all it requires is having many fewer turns on the coils.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I think you are absolutely correct about low-output moving magnets. I have a Pickering XLZ7500, and find it it has many of the attributes of moving coils, such as excellent resolution and depth, but a very smooth top end, without the bit of peakiness that you sometimes have with moving coil. Plus, a user-replaceable stylus assembly. I'm fortunate enough to have several OEM stylus assemblies, but I suspect these qualities would be present with some of the better aftermarket units. It would be great if, as you said, manufacturers picked up on this concept; it's easy to do, all it requires is having many fewer turns on the coils.

Smaller magnets?

 

[MarkNC]

Smaller magnets?

That would give less moving mass, but also reduce the output even more. The Stanton/Pickering LOMM units already have very low output. The much shorter coils give a very low internal impedance and lower inductance, similar to LOMC, which is what I believe contributes to their MC-like qualities. Could you elaborate on your answer? I'm not clear on the specifics in this context.

 

[Grenadeslio]

That would give less moving mass, but also reduce the output even more. The Stanton/Pickering LOMM units already have very low output. The much shorter coils give a very low internal impedance and lower inductance, similar to LOMC, which is what I believe contributes to their MC-like qualities. Could you elaborate on your answer? I'm not clear on the specifics in this context.

"It is generally believed that MC cartridges sport lower moving masses. However, quality MM cartridges are able to offer as low or lower moving mass than some MC cartridges. For example, the state-of-the-art Technics EPC-100CMK4 with 0.055 mg of effective tip mass, of moving magnet design. Comparatively, the popular Denon DL-301 moving coil cartridge has an effective tip mass of 0.270 mg."

Frequency response: 5 Hz- 120,000 Hz
20 Hz- 20,000 Hz +,- 0.3 db ( * )
15 Hz- 80,000 Hz +,- 3 db

Output voltage: 1.2 mV ( * )
Channel separation: more than 25 db.
Channel balance: within 0.5 db
Compliance: 12cu ( 100 Hz, dynamic. )
DC resistance: 30 Ohms ( ** )
Inductance: 33 mH
Recommended load
Resistance: 10 kohms to 1 Mohms!
Recommended load
Capacitance: less than 500 pf. ( )
VTF: 1.25 +,-0.25 g.

 

[MarkNC]

"It is generally believed that MC cartridges sport lower moving masses. However, quality MM cartridges are able to offer as low or lower moving mass than some MC cartridges. For example, the state-of-the-art Technics EPC-100CMK4 with 0.055 mg of effective tip mass, of moving magnet design. Comparatively, the popular Denon DL-301 moving coil cartridge has an effective tip mass of 0.270 mg."

Frequency response: 5 Hz- 120,000 Hz
20 Hz- 20,000 Hz +,- 0.3 db ( * )
15 Hz- 80,000 Hz +,- 3 db

Output voltage: 1.2 mV ( * )
Channel separation: more than 25 db.
Channel balance: within 0.5 db
Compliance: 12cu ( 100 Hz, dynamic. )
DC resistance: 30 Ohms ( ** )
Inductance: 33 mH
Recommended load
Resistance: 10 kohms to 1 Mohms!
Recommended load
Capacitance: less than 500 pf. ( )
VTF: 1.25 +,-0.25 g.

I'm thinking more within the context of a the same cartridge/stylus assembly, but one being low output with shorter coils and low internal impedance versus the same but with normal coils and internal impedance. The same Pickering stylus assembly sounds to me significantly better in the LO body versus one of my HO XSV4000 or XSV5000 bodies, primarily in the previously-mentioned areas of resolution and depth.

 

[BushmasterM4]

That AT-OC9ML/II is a very good sounding cartridge - and not just for the money.
Listening to one may make many folks think differently about how an inexpensive MC sounds.

I bought a Kenwood KP-9010 a few months ago and finally set it up with an AT-OC9ML/II last Saturday. And while its not even broke in yet, I do like the sound of it.

 

[cafe latte]

I'm thinking more within the context of a the same cartridge/stylus assembly, but one being low output with shorter coils and low internal impedance versus the same but with normal coils and internal impedance. The same Pickering stylus assembly sounds to me significantly better in the LO body versus one of my HO XSV4000 or XSV5000 bodies, primarily in the previously-mentioned areas of resolution and depth.

Not really hearing the same with high and low output Grado. That said Stanton high output have very high resistance coils which is probably how they kept moving mass down. High resistance and inductance is not a bad thing far far too this than that.
Chris

 

[Scramble]

No MC I have bought yet comes close to my MI Decca super gold. I have a Grado statement reference (low output) which gets quite close but the Decca still wins. I have a vintage MM Technics 205cmk3 with both original stylus and a Jico, this was one of the lowest moving mass carts ever, lower than most MC carts despite being MM. This is scary good with either stylus. MC is not the only way up, look at Soundsmith carts (MI) many costing way more than your MC. There is a false opinion that MC is the only high end cart and this is just not true. Love my MC's just saying many roads to Nirvana.
Chris

You just said the same thing a few posts back. Any reason you feel the need to repeat yourself?

 

[cafe latte]

You just said the same thing a few posts back. Any reason you feel the need to repeat yourself?

Not exactly the same. I also post on a lot of threads and more than one forum and dont reread every post of every thread so it can happen.
Chris