My system (Crown amplifier controversy busted)

[SuperjazzyJa]

The first place and time I've seen a Crown amplifier was at the Dick's Sporting Goods in Homestead, PA while at work there. It's a Crown Com-Tech 210 used in the store sound system. Originally, I didn't know what this black box was as It had lights on it that read "SPI" which I knew could mean "Serial Peripheral Interface" on it. One time, I looked this device up online and it is what I though it might be, an amplifier. After finding out that they could be had for cheap, I wanted to build a stereo system around it. However, a post at avsforum.com says this.


Due to this, I looked into it further. After reading that Crown amplifiers are accurate and don't color the sound, I thought I'd give it a try. I purchased a Crown CT-210 amplifier, an Audio-Technica AT-LP60X Turntble, a Technics ST-K50 Tuner, and a Kenwood KC-206 preamplifier. I used a DVD-VCR combo we already had for playing CDs.

After wiring it all up with some generic bookshelf speakers, I actually sounded pretty good. Later on, I purchased a Rockville subwoofer, some small automotive speaker boxes, and 6.5 inch 8-ohm whizzer cone full-range drivers. After these came, I assembled the speakers and installed the subwoofer between the amplifier and speakers. Even later, I got a Crown D-75A that I use to power a pair of Audio-Technica AT-PRO7X headphones.

Any thoughts on this system

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If it sounds good to you, feels solid, and you are happy with the performance. Win.

Yes! If it sounds good to YOUR ears, that's what matters.

Too many people are concerned with how many watts an amplifier can produce in relation to the wattage rating of the speakers. Instead, consider the sensitivity rating of the speakers, room size, the number of hard vs soft surfaces and the other factors under the heading of room acoustics. The idea that the amplifier should be able to produce at least twice as many watts as the speakers are rated for is completely bogus. I once had a pair of speakers rated for 150 watts each. They were powered by a receiver that put out 80 wpc with NO F***ING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! Small room with mostly hard surfaces. The sensitivity rating was 89 dB 1w/m. With the volume control set BELOW the 12:00 position, the volume was certainly ample. I have never blown a driver or damaged a speaker in any way because I have always made sure to use an amp/speaker combo that can produce a satisfactory volume with the volume control below the 12:00 position. Meanwhile, people who try to tell me that what I do is wrong have fried a few drivers and not just tweeters. They have also popped crossover caps. Yeah, I think I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

Another load of BS floating around is that if you listen to full orchestra classical, you need an amp that can deliver at least 200 wpc otherwise, the music will "fall apart." Total BS! I have listened to full orchestra classical with my 5 wpc Bluetooth speaker and the music ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, MOST DEFINITELY DID NOT FALL APART! It sounds great!

 

[tha(t)oneguy]

Yes! If it sounds good to YOUR ears, that's what matters.

Too many people are concerned with how many watts an amplifier can produce in relation to the wattage rating of the speakers. Instead, consider the sensitivity rating of the speakers, room size, the number of hard vs soft surfaces and the other factors under the heading of room acoustics. The idea that the amplifier should be able to produce at least twice as many watts as the speakers are rated for is completely bogus. I once had a pair of speakers rated for 150 watts each. They were powered by a receiver that put out 80 wpc with NO F***ING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! Small room with mostly hard surfaces. The sensitivity rating was 89 dB 1w/m. With the volume control set BELOW the 12:00 position, the volume was certainly ample. I have never blown a driver or damaged a speaker in any way because I have always made sure to use an amp/speaker combo that can produce a satisfactory volume with the volume control below the 12:00 position. Meanwhile, people who try to tell me that what I do is wrong have fried a few drivers and not just tweeters. They have also popped crossover caps. Yeah, I think I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

Another load of BS floating around is that if you listen to full orchestra classical, you need an amp that can deliver at least 200 wpc otherwise, the music will "fall apart." Total BS! I have listened to full orchestra classical with my 5 wpc Bluetooth speaker and the music ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, MOST DEFINITELY DID NOT FALL APART! It sounds great!

Yup, headroom is just an easily marketable term. It is important, but its not actually got a hole lot to do with dynamic presentation of an amplifier. Lots of variables come into play with that.

I repeat it pretty often, but you absolutely have a more dynamically active 50w amp then a 300w amp. Average wattage power output is only a very small slice of what affects that. Slew rates, capacitor quality as well as size (the rate of charge/discharge in the power supply, as well as how clean its signal is), the exact design topography of the amplifier and PS both (amp channels are genuinely nothing more then power supply modulators), the rms/peak gap, and more all come into play with the dynamic presentation of an amplifier.

If anything, the size of the gap between RMS and peak output figures will have a bigger impact on perceived dynamic presentation, if simplifying into an easily understood and read spec is what you are after. And in my experience, at least when solidly *outside* the high end, where 99% of us live with audio, smaller wattage amplifiers tend to have the larger rms/peak gap, and often IME feel the most dynamically active to me as well, ASSUMING a properly paired set of speakers are in play with that amplifier. I would expect an amplifier rated at 55x55rms/100x100 peak, to feel more dynamically active then a 100x100rms/150x150 peak rated. Assuming they were rocking similar design topographies and component quality anyway. A much larger reserve of peak power compared to average available power is present in the lower wattage amplifier in this scenario, meaning there is reason to suspect before even listening, the lower wattage amplifier will feel more lively, but you still can;t make dymanic presentation a cut and dry issue.


Headroom=Dynamics..... It's not that cut and dry if you want to be technical... not even close. This is why i always start with basically "if you like the sound, its good, enjoy and carry on"


Ive only ever totally killed a few of my own drivers. two were inexpensive button tweeters. i killed them driving with an underpowered amp that didnt have clipping protection lol. Cooked the tweeters. That being said i've replaced many a dead pro audio/PA driver/sub. But at a venue it really seems like your replacing drivers every month or so lol. Especially now a days with everything big coming out of crappy factories in china.

 

[ZZwergel]

On a Crown Com-Tech 210, What does It mean if the right channel ODEP light is off and IOC and SPI lights are on solid? The left channel functions normally with the ODEP light on and the SPI light flickering with the music. This is what the status indicators read on the amplifier at work.

 

[sberger]

Well others with a more historic perspective its an enjoyable read all this.

I find no brittle or insubstantial sound field in a much loved Crown XLS602 presently driving x 4 large main tower front stage. In a parallel wiring configuration its 830 watts into a stable 2 ohm load. Sonic performance is mind blowingly good. I doubt there are too many amplifiers in this world capable of it.

Yes it's home audio. Domestic hifi with hifi quality that eclipses a lot of systems out there with the use of a pro audio amplifier. I don't fathom why a clown would think a pro audio amplifier is a problem for home hifi. Perhaps your just unworldly, unresearched and wrongfully snobby due to a low self worth issue. Who knows who cares really.

LOVE my XLS602.

The 402 ain't chopped liver either.

 

[JoeESP9]

LOVE my XLS602.

The 402 ain't chopped liver either.

I replaced a bridged pair of XLS-402's with a bridged pair of XLS-2002's. The 2002's are noticeably quieter. I've never heard their fans come on. That was not the case with the 402's.

 

[Chad Michael]

Years ago, as a gigging musician, my bass amp needed to go for a repair. A bandmate / friend loaned me a Crown PowerBase 1, used a GK as a preamp, and played a couple of gigs with it.

I ended up buying it from him (with a blown channel). Still have it, still enjoy it, wish I could fix or pay someone else to do so.

 

[sberger]

I replaced a bridged pair of XLS-402's with a bridged pair of XLS-2002's. The 2002's are noticeably quieter. I've never heard their fans come on. That was not the case with the 402's.

This is true. My 602 and 402 fans run constantly, but for whatever reason I prefer them to the always silent XLS-1000 that I also own. While the fans can be somewhat obtrusive when no music is playing(which means if I'm doing something else besides playing music for then just a few minutes, I'll usually shut the amp down), with music on the fans never get in the way.

 

[BradV]

I replaced a bridged pair of XLS-402's with a bridged pair of XLS-2002's. The 2002's are noticeably quieter. I've never heard their fans come on. That was not the case with the 402's.

Fan noise is definitely there with the XLS602 I find. If I'm watching a quiet movie I put a loose weave cloth over the front.

 

[twiiii]

Who ever told you Crown amps don't color the sound was very ill informed. I know I owned different models for close to 16 years. I installed different models from the DC-300 A and all models through the late 90's. Yes Crown had a sound that could be very good until Harmon bought them and they changed for sure being designed for the professional market where light weight and high output were the most important qualities and as long as the distortion was below 2% and the signal to noise was stellar customers were happy. When they went to Class D I was shocked. Crown amps have very small performance margins which is a big clue that they are not for home service. Yes they can make great sub woofer and LF amps in Bi amped systems. But they give me the chills when producing any thing above 2500 HZ or so with home systems. Now I will admit I haven't heard the latest amps in the past 6 years. So understand my concern are for previous amps. Now I will admit the Reference series Crown amps were spectacular and corrected all of the issues my amps had. I liked my PSA2 very much but you didn't dare push it above -8 db or so because peaks could become very edgy and overly emphasized giving me instant head aches. In other words it was a great 50 watt average signal amp. All early Crown amps were that way. There was some unknown threshold depending on the speakers being used you just didn't want cross, I wiped out a pair of La Scala tweeters and compromised a woofer a bit while the Mayor of the city was speaking before a standing audience of 400 or so dedicating an out door theatre with the La Scalas on scafolding. That never would have happened if I had been using the companies MC 3500 or MC 2120 with power guard. All systems had to be combined with Urei 1176 and 1178 peak limiters to keep from having melt downs and speaker failures. A problem we never had with QSC amps for instance. Yes, they were a bit colored too with out the super crisp highs of the Crown , but the QSC were clear, clean, and non fatiguing in my use with Altec, JBL, Meyer and Klipsch speakers.

Whether we installed, designed systems, or designed by others requiring Crown I was always disappointed. I will admit BGW were worse when it came to longeveity and over heating, but they sounded great, no matter the speaker system. Crest was OK, too. I liked UREI amps till Harmon bought them and integrated them into the conglomerate with all new designs that just weren't the same. The only thing I ever liked that Harmon was involved with was Citation tube stuff.

 

[orsen]

I've heard that the XLS2502 is another great sounding pro audio amp

i have an xls1500, i didnt like the sound. the highs just didnt seem right. but it make a wonderful sub amp and the built in x-over makes it great for that.

.

 

[nailer]

Had a Crown D150 in 1977 that didn't float my audio boat.

 

[grey]

I liked UREI amps till Harmon bought them and integrated them into the conglomerate with all new designs that just weren't the same.

When did UREI start to go wrong for you? Have several of the 62xx units where there are two different arrangements on the output posts. Before that, there was the front-loading modules. After that, they had a brief period of white faces. There seems to be some lost history on these.

 

[Dan13105]

I daily drive a JBL/Urei 6290. It's been a great amp. Sounds good, dual mono, built like a tank, and actually doubles down on power from 300W at 8 Ohms, to 600W at 4 ohms. Drives my Acoustats that can dip to 1.1 ohms without a complaint. Only downsides for me is It's kind of ugly, and the fan noise can be annoying at low volumes. I don't think I could get a better amplifier for the price I paid. Haven't used a crown for home audio, but I wouldn't be afraid to try one if one came along for a good price.

 

[Retro_Pete]

What else is there to a power amplifier than to cleanly amplify the source signal.
If it clears 96 dB dynamic range (CD has 96 dB DR),
has below about 0,05 % THD,
decent crosstalk like -60 dB
a flat frequency response within the audible range and
not load dependent,
there is only self-noise left that might or might not be audible dependable on your speaker sensitivity.

And IR to dynamic range your average room noise floor is probably above 30 dB anyway so it can be debated if 96 dB is really necessary at all.

Most PA or "Pro" amplifiers are basic class A/B design with fans using the same BJT's or mosfets as their shiny expensive audiophile siblings. Many have rail switching and tracking power supplies, some hybrids before the switch to class D have switch mode power supplies. Otherwise the power supply is a mix of EI and toroidal transformers as well.

I'll never buy a residential integrated or power amplifier. I have simply nothing to gain.

 

[Blue Shadow]

What else is there to a power amplifier than to cleanly amplify the source signal.

When you evaluate solely by spec, your choice of pro over home audio amps is just fine. But if you listen to a pile of different amps, you might hear some differences even though the specs read very similar. I don't think test gear can indicate everything the human can hear.

 

[twiiii]

Urei started going down hill sometime in the late 70's as I remember. WE bought a few of their early first run of amps, but compared to others we didn't see the value. So we just stuck with their EQ's, limiters, and phono pre-amps. The Urei was so much easier to work on and repair. Changing a volume control on a Bozak DJ mixer was a night mare. The Bozak cheap RCA connection on the back panel were not resilient at all. The Urei mixer was nuch easier to work on and reconfigure. It sound quality wasn't as for giving as the Bozak mixer, which was very important when LP's were the only choice. Reminded me of Tube pre-amps for the home at the time.

 

[Retro_Pete]

When you evaluate solely by spec, your choice of pro over home audio amps is just fine. But if you listen to a pile of different amps, you might hear some differences even though the specs read very similar. I don't think test gear can indicate everything the human can hear.

Ok. I don't think manufacturers design amps with a certain sound by chance. They design by simulation SW and then measurements to verify.

What you imply is that if they design a solid state amp to sound a certain way they will have no way to verify that it has that certain sound because it can't be measured. How does this manufacturer keep their certain sound across decades with different iterations of electronic components from different sources? Must be impossibly hard for the engineers to pick components that has that certain sound if data sheets and measurements can't be trusted.

Yamaha is not "bright"
Marantz is not "warm"

 

[Blue Shadow]

How does this manufacturer keep their certain sound across decades with different iterations of electronic components from different sources?

They Listen to their gear.

Luxman spoke about how they listened to all their new designs before approving production. Others are doing this today.

 

[ZZwergel]

Years ago, as a gigging musician, my bass amp needed to go for a repair. A bandmate / friend loaned me a Crown PowerBase 1, used a GK as a preamp, and played a couple of gigs with it.

I ended up buying it from him (with a blown channel). Still have it, still enjoy it, wish I could fix or pay someone else to do so. View attachment 3179447

Send it to AE Techron in Elkhart, Indiana. They repair legacy Crown equipment.

 

[ZZwergel]

Who ever told you Crown amps don't color the sound was very ill informed. I know I owned different models for close to 16 years. I installed different models from the DC-300 A and all models through the late 90's. Yes Crown had a sound that could be very good until Harmon bought them and they changed for sure being designed for the professional market where light weight and high output were the most important qualities and as long as the distortion was below 2% and the signal to noise was stellar customers were happy. When they went to Class D I was shocked. Crown amps have very small performance margins which is a big clue that they are not for home service. Yes they can make great sub woofer and LF amps in Bi amped systems. But they give me the chills when producing any thing above 2500 HZ or so with home systems. Now I will admit I haven't heard the latest amps in the past 6 years. So understand my concern are for previous amps. Now I will admit the Reference series Crown amps were spectacular and corrected all of the issues my amps had. I liked my PSA2 very much but you didn't dare push it above -8 db or so because peaks could become very edgy and overly emphasized giving me instant head aches. In other words it was a great 50 watt average signal amp. All early Crown amps were that way. There was some unknown threshold depending on the speakers being used you just didn't want cross, I wiped out a pair of La Scala tweeters and compromised a woofer a bit while the Mayor of the city was speaking before a standing audience of 400 or so dedicating an out door theatre with the La Scalas on scafolding. That never would have happened if I had been using the companies MC 3500 or MC 2120 with power guard. All systems had to be combined with Urei 1176 and 1178 peak limiters to keep from having melt downs and speaker failures. A problem we never had with QSC amps for instance. Yes, they were a bit colored too with out the super crisp highs of the Crown , but the QSC were clear, clean, and non fatiguing in my use with Altec, JBL, Meyer and Klipsch speakers.

Whether we installed, designed systems, or designed by others requiring Crown I was always disappointed. I will admit BGW were worse when it came to longeveity and over heating, but they sounded great, no matter the speaker system. Crest was OK, too. I liked UREI amps till Harmon bought them and integrated them into the conglomerate with all new designs that just weren't the same. The only thing I ever liked that Harmon was involved with was Citation tube stuff.

I remember some YouTubers saying the XLX-2502 (Or something like it) sound "dry" and "glassy" in the high end. Older models have IOC lights on them that light up well before any distortion becomes audible at 0.05%. The Com-Tech 210 can get insanely loud before those lights flash.