• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

New Custom PhonoCartridges

Ken Boyd said:
I have an old Sony cart that I like and I think Sony was on to something but due to the CD's takeover it closed shop. I wonder if this design would be a worth while one.


Sony used a Figure 8 coil to address the recurrent problems of moving-coil : low output, field-disturbing iron core, and increase of coil turns to increase output.

By giving one part of the armature a 90° twist, the two halves of the coil do not cancel each other out but produce voltage with both inward and outward movements.
No need to use a stronger iron core or increase the number of coil turns : linearity is improved, the cantilever isn't burdened by a heavier coil and output is doubled - simple.

They are a LOMC but they were designed with replaceable stylus assemblies, which is something that I think the market is missing When you damage or wear out a MC cart its either trash or you have to send it off for a retip. Having one where you can order a new tip, would be something that might be an advantage over competitors.
Click to expand...

Not sure if it is the same cartridge architecture. But Transfiguration licensed the Sony ring magnet design and then improved upon it. They make very nice cartridges.

There is a degree of stability that is advantagous to a fixed mount stylus design, and given the gap tolerances in a moving coil cartridge, it seems there are distinct advantages of the design.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Well actually the replacement stylus included the the new coil assembly and it cost about 2/3 of the cost of a new cart, but they did just slide in!:D
 
Well, back to work on a Monday but I suspect you gentlemen are enjoying this as much as I am. Thanks for all your thoughts and ruminations.
 
Ken Boyd said:
Well actually the replacement stylus included the the new coil assembly and it cost about 2/3 of the cost of a new cart, but they did just slide in!:D
Click to expand...
2/3 is about what a new cartridge cost when you returned the old in exchange, but the Sony system meant you didn't have to perform a new alignment. My only concern with it is lack of rigidity and electrical continuity in the joint. Not every solution is without it's drawbacks, it seems.
 
ripblade said:
Not every solution is without it's drawbacks, it seems.
Click to expand...

I know that most of the physics conservation laws have been proven to have exceptions. Momentums, quantum numbers, exclusion rules, all that stuff. About what we are left with is energy. That one seems solid.

In engineering (as well as physics), one can shift the most difficult part of the task around between the mechanical design, the dynamics, the thermodynamics, the electronics,......but there is not doubt that in any giver project:

Misery is conserved!!
 
OldADC said:
I know that most of the physics conservation laws have been proven to have exceptions. Momentums, quantum numbers, exclusion rules, all that stuff. About what we are left with is energy. That one seems solid.

In engineering (as well as physics), one can shift the most difficult part of the task around between the mechanical design, the dynamics, the thermodynamics, the electronics,......but there is not doubt that in any giver project:

Misery is conserved!!
Click to expand...
Is this the unwritten (until now) "Eric's law of conservation of misery".
You should copyright?
 
Last edited:
Pio1980 said:
Is this the unwritten (until now) "Eric's law of conservation of misery".
You should copyright?
Click to expand...

All of my employees (I am VP/GM of a very high end laser R&D firm that is involved in all those high energy laser weapons for missile defense and such. The staff of the company is >90% PhDs in Physics, Physical Chemistry, Optical Engineering) and most of my customers (DARPA and such) are infinitely familiar with the Law of Conservation of Misery.
 
That's a great one. I'm still looking for an ML180/OCC. The pictures I posted are the same magnification, so you can see how much smaller and thinner the Technics cantilever is.
 
Greetings all. I have just had a most interesting meeting with a sales representative of one of the only two remaining diamond/cantilever assembly producers left in the world.

I progress with respect to knowing what materials and diamond configurations are available. Ahhh, the choices. Not very many choices, actually. The market has contracted so significantly from the good ol' days that the number of variations is quite small.

Will need to process this information with respect to what you have all expressed as desires for MM/MI, replaceable styli, etc.

Told you I would keep you all informed. Progress....information is key!!!

Cheers, Old ADC
 
Afaik, Namiki supplies JICO with the tips and with the boron rod microline tipped cant', and Benz Micro supplied tips and I think, cantelevers or did in Europe.
Dunno other than Namiki who does now.
 
I am also curious as to the market structure, although I can see why some current vendors may
feel it better left unsaid.
 
Eric: Really only two suppliers left? Wow... I thought Ogura and Nagaoka might also still offer diamond tips, but apparently I was mistaken...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Gents,

I do know that Ogura is still in the business. Benz Micro I am quite unsure about. The Swiss company, who I used to have a supply relationship with years ago, is still in the industrial jewel business, but no longer does diamonds for cartridges. Swiss Stylus used to be a subsidiary of Swiss Jewel. Swiss Jewel remains, but the diamond subsidiary has bowed out.

Expert Stylus is a new one to me. Seriously, never heard of them before but a touch of background would seem to indicate they have been around at this for quite some time. You never know everybody!!

I am sorry that I cannot answer questions concerning which vendor may supply which cartridge manufacturer. Vendors in the business, as in virtually all technology businesses, have proprietary information agreements with their major customers and these must be respected. Advancements in design have to be executed, not only by the cartridge design company, but by the critical vendor base as well. Presume for a moment that I do something rather different, revolutionary, or an evolutionary improvement. I would need one of my suppliers to execute certain parts of this design in the hardware where they have particular technical expertise. It is my expectation that they supply components to my competitors as well. However, it is also my expectation, and my competitors expectations, that the information is held confidentially by the common vendor and not allowed to cross lines between companies that they serve.

I still believe that JICO is primarily a reseller, the Swiss are pretty much out of the game, and therefore we have Namiki, Ogura, and Expert Stylus. Nagaoka indeed appears to still be active claiming on their website to be the largest in Japan. I have done a little work with them in the past but not nearly as much as with Namiki and Ogura. So I think that puts us a 4 for sure.

Frankly, that is a more robust competitive landscape for diamonds and cantilevers than I thought might still exist. And bodes well for some more innovation. Actually pretty exciting.

Appreciate all your feedback and questions and I will answer what I can. I continue to learn everyday. It's a good thing!!
 
OldADC said:
Nat, I do believe the AKG suspension design to be a good one and does try to address the stability of the pivot point. There is an elastomer block that holds the armature but also an additional tight clearance hole metal plate which tries to stabilize the rotational point. It is a pretty good design and images well as you note.The elastomer is always a part of these designs as it provides the motional damping term for the resonant system. You have some effective moving mass, and some compliance (ie resistance to motion) and just like a cars suspension and shocks, you have to have some damping or the whole thing will be out of control. This brings us into the age old questions of underdamped, overdamped, or critically damped. It is these features in different cartridge designs that determine the sonic characteristics that people identify as "really smooth" (a touch overdamped), "hot", "sparkly", "edgy", "bright" (underdamped), and "balanced", "open", "neutral", "boring" (critically damped). And yes I picked works for those who both like and dislike each of these conditions! Haha

As for ceramic cartridges, I think it would be a while before I played with piezo crystals. I believe I have had my dose of them in the laser business. Kinda want to play with magnetics again.
Click to expand...

If only AKG could have improved on their stylus tip to underbody clearances I would like their cartridges.

I am a phono cartridge maker btw. A bit under the radar I must say.

.
 
Really appreciate your time to look into making something good for all of us who are still very much into our records...I am not much of a fan of the MM/MI cartriges as most of the ones i used/heard were IMO not that great (dont sound like real music)...so my vote would be for a MC cartridge with possible replacement stylus that actually sounds like music ...the real thing

My so called reference cartridge if you will would be the old fulton carts that were manufactured by entre these are excellent with extremely good quality gem quality conical .6mil diamonds...very long lasting ..I have been ISO of cantilever company that could supply this quality and there is none including the swiss company and yes they still offer there cantilever stylus assemblies

The tie wire you speak of is actually what they call piano wire and when properly damped does not cause any issue that could be heard ..remember most if not all MC carts are done this way...but there are other methods that we could discuss including conical point contact pivot
When you do make up some samples I would like to be your beta tester...I have a very wide band system good room and know what real live not amplified music sounds like.
Lawrence
 
You say tomato, I say tomahhtoe. Tie wire, piano wire, tis all the same thing. As for the assertion that properly damped, there is no audible coloration associated with tie wire resonances, I will respectfully disagree.
As I have stated before, the phase rotation associated with the resonance, no matter how well damped, takes its toll on the transient attack characteristics of higher frequencies. You may often not perceive this with MC designs which almost uniformly use tie wires because their rising high frequency amplitude response masks the temporal domain effects. Plus, frankly, at my advancing age, I'm not sure I hear at damn thing at these frequencies. But just because I don't hear doesn't mean it isn't there. One exceptionally fine reason for having some much younger listeners as part of any evaluation!!

So, if memory serves (another function decaying with age, damn it), an R8 Gordini is an old model of Renault? Sir, do you suffer from car disease as well? I do and I consider that car disease and audio disease should be mutually exclusive for two reasons. One is financial and the other is incompatibility......loud cars and hearing loss are inconsistent with best form audio disease. Life imposes hard choices. Heavy sigh!!

R8 Gordini, feel free to open a private conversation if you prefer.

I am wondering if this thread is going to take on a designer's forum like character. There aren't too many of us left "skilled in the art" as it were.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom