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"No Point" getting higher end MM if you can properly run MC as well

MC will out-perform MM at same price point if neither is disadvantaged by system

  • YES

    Votes: 48 43.2%

  • NO

    Votes: 63 56.8%
  • Total voters
    111
Sleiven said:
The OC9XEN has a significant droop. Must be a quite dull cartridge
Click to expand...

The speaker design people long, long ago understood that FR curves only tell part of the story... why don't you?
Are you familiarized with how FR is measured?
 
KentTeffeteller said:
I use my ears in ways many MC users do not. In the frequency range which matters, 20-18,000 Hertz, and records which make LOMC freak out tracking them. Which have higher average levels of modulation your audiophile discs only see on extreme peaks.
Click to expand...

I do agree the "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose: lower recording levels enable lower distortion, all things equal. And yes, there are commercial discs that are very hot, for example discs for DJ usage. Would you care to provide some specific examples?

KentTeffeteller said:
My equipment is approved by the people who cut master lacquers which press the best records you buy. (...) Why not email a noted mastering engineer and ask what equipment they use?
Click to expand...

Again, "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose, and, in general, cutting engineers are reluctant to placing higher level of modulations on records for many reasons:

#1. Most of their customers expect their records to not to skip on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#1.1 Most of their customers expect their records to play without sibilances or other distortions on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#2. High modulation levels on high frequencies will mean lots of current to the cutting head ($$$$) with the risk of blowing of the cutting head coil and thus having to pay a really expensive ($$$) repair, OR making the limiter kick-in.

#3. This increases the chances their first cut attempt could go wrong (too hot levels, try again) and thus more $$ cost due to use of more lacquer blanks. Which today, afaik, are sold by only one company.

Thus, a cutting engineer on his/her day-to-day job wants to safely, quickly and cheaply get the job done -- this means, conservative levels!!

The cutting engineers who cut records like the Telarc 1812 record, are operating well outside their normal comfort zone. As were the cutting engineers of Sheffield Lab, for example. The true, daring, __real__ audiophile (not "audiophile") record companies.

Thus, most cutting engineers won't feel any need for high-tracking-ability, high-tracing-ability replay cartridges; quite the opposite they need to check their cuts with cartridges representative of average use like the AT-3600L or the AT-95E. So what does "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" mean? An AT-3600L is definitely not just APPROVED but RECOMMENDED as "standard replay equipment" for a cutting engineer, go ask the "Society of Lathe Trolls" if you want.

Thus, "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" is a bit meaningless for somebody who is looking for the ultimate in vinyl replay.

Getting back to "audiophile" discs, last time i replayed a MFSL disc i noticed how low (quiet) the cutting level was... compared to good-sounding record of the 70s or 80s era. Cowards!! Again, if they cut at a nice, good, loud cutting level, the audiophile, low-distortion sound will only be achieved with HIGH END cartridges. The cutting engineers know that.
 
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flavio81 said:
I do agree the "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose: lower recording levels enable lower distortion, all things equal. And yes, there are commercial discs that are very hot, for example discs for DJ usage. Would you care to provide some specific examples?



Again, "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose, and, in general, cutting engineers are reluctant to placing higher level of modulations on records for many reasons:

#1. Most of their customers expect their records to not to skip on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#1.1 Most of their customers expect their records to play without sibilances or other distortions on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#2. High modulation levels on high frequencies will mean lots of current to the cutting head ($$$$) with the risk of blowing of the cutting head coil and thus having to pay a really expensive ($$$) repair, OR making the limiter kick-in.

#3. This increases the chances their first cut attempt could go wrong (too hot levels, try again) and thus more $$ cost due to use of more lacquer blanks. Which today, afaik, are sold by only one company.

Thus, a cutting engineer on his/her day-to-day job wants to safely, quickly and cheaply get the job done -- this means, conservative levels!!

The cutting engineers who cut records like the Telarc 1812 record, are operating well outside their normal comfort zone. As were the cutting engineers of Sheffield Lab, for example.

Thus, most cutting engineers won't feel any need for high-tracking-ability, high-tracing-ability replay cartridges; quite the opposite they need to check their cuts with cartridges representative of average use like the AT-3600L or the AT-95E. So what does "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" mean? An AT-3600L is definitely not just APPROVED but RECOMMENDED as "standard replay equipment" for a cutting engineer, go ask the "Society of Lathe Trolls" if you want.

Thus, "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" is a bit meaningless for somebody who is looking for the ultimate in vinyl replay.

Getting back to "audiophile" discs, last time i replayed a MFSL disc i noticed how low (quiet) the cutting level was... compared to good-sounding record of the 70s or 80s era. Cowards!! Again, if they cut at a nice, good, loud cutting level, the audiophile, low-distortion sound will only be achieved with HIGH END cartridges. The cutting engineers know that.
Click to expand...

Is this so? I would think that an audiophile LP goal would be to try and capture the original engineer's and mastering philosophy --- just with the least background noise.

I'm not a big fan of every modern re-master. Though, some are very good.
 
flavio81 said:
The cutting engineers who cut records like the Telarc 1812 record, are operating well outside their normal comfort zone. As were the cutting engineers of Sheffield Lab, for example. The true, daring, __real__ audiophile (not "audiophile") record companies.
Click to expand...
QFT
 
flavio81 said:
I do agree the "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose: lower recording levels enable lower distortion, all things equal. And yes, there are commercial discs that are very hot, for example discs for DJ usage. Would you care to provide some specific examples?



Again, "audiophile" discs have lower levels of modulation on purpose, and, in general, cutting engineers are reluctant to placing higher level of modulations on records for many reasons:

#1. Most of their customers expect their records to not to skip on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#1.1 Most of their customers expect their records to play without sibilances or other distortions on any kind of turntable/cartridge combination, thus they need to be conservative.

#2. High modulation levels on high frequencies will mean lots of current to the cutting head ($$$$) with the risk of blowing of the cutting head coil and thus having to pay a really expensive ($$$) repair, OR making the limiter kick-in.

#3. This increases the chances their first cut attempt could go wrong (too hot levels, try again) and thus more $$ cost due to use of more lacquer blanks. Which today, afaik, are sold by only one company.

Thus, a cutting engineer on his/her day-to-day job wants to safely, quickly and cheaply get the job done -- this means, conservative levels!!

The cutting engineers who cut records like the Telarc 1812 record, are operating well outside their normal comfort zone. As were the cutting engineers of Sheffield Lab, for example. The true, daring, __real__ audiophile (not "audiophile") record companies.

Thus, most cutting engineers won't feel any need for high-tracking-ability, high-tracing-ability replay cartridges; quite the opposite they need to check their cuts with cartridges representative of average use like the AT-3600L or the AT-95E. So what does "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" mean? An AT-3600L is definitely not just APPROVED but RECOMMENDED as "standard replay equipment" for a cutting engineer, go ask the "Society of Lathe Trolls" if you want.

Thus, "approved by the people who cut master lacquers" is a bit meaningless for somebody who is looking for the ultimate in vinyl replay.

Getting back to "audiophile" discs, last time i replayed a MFSL disc i noticed how low (quiet) the cutting level was... compared to good-sounding record of the 70s or 80s era. Cowards!! Again, if they cut at a nice, good, loud cutting level, the audiophile, low-distortion sound will only be achieved with HIGH END cartridges. The cutting engineers know that.
Click to expand...
AT-3600L is not a reference cartridge to an old school professional. Shure's V-15 Type VxMR is, Stanton 881-S is. My tough for MC cartridges records, are many mono 45 RPM singles, and many early RCA Living Stereo, original Belock Everest LP discs, and Mercury Stereo into the middle 1960's. Hard to track without breakup by most LOMC.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
AT-3600L is not a reference cartridge to an old school professional. Shure's V-15 Type VxMR is, Stanton 881-S is. My tough for MC cartridges records, are many mono 45 RPM singles, and many early RCA Living Stereo, original Belock Everest LP discs, and Mercury Stereo into the middle 1960's. Hard to track without breakup by most LOMC.
Click to expand...

Curious to know. What was the last moving coil you used? Anything produced in the last ten years?
 
Mr Boochie said:
You ever eat Shredded Wheat with just milk? No sugar or anything else to boost the flavor?

Like eating the cardboard box. :idea:
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Not sure how I forgot that one. My pops fav. Yes I have, without sugar. I didn't put sugar in any of the others either. I wouldn't know how a cardboard box eats so will have to take your word on that. I would think a cardboard box would be much thought to chew.

Pretty much only do steel cut oats, a little honey with some fruit in to nowadays.
 
Mr Boochie said:
You ever eat Shredded Wheat with just milk? No sugar or anything else to boost the flavor?

Like eating the cardboard box. :idea:
Click to expand...
I remember the shredded wheat that came as one huge hay bale for your bowl. Or Boochie , is this some cartridge metaphor you smart boys understand ?
 
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