cubby01
aka Buck
"It was all goin' along just fine until I reached for that old belt" -Lefty
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Plane Crashes Into Stands At Reno Air Races
- Thread starter usedto
- Start date
"It was all goin' along just fine until I reached for that old belt" -Lefty
kneeOhFight
Addicted Member
true, and motor racing isn't enjoyed in primitive forms elsewhere, either. All those sanctioning bodies run events featuring grossly overpowered vehicles, as compared to their ability to properly handle, and on appropriately primitive racing courses. The primary reason so few FIA and FIM sanctioned events run in America is so few courses meet their safety standards (the only cars which pass muster are the ALMS cars), namely, only the Indy road course for bikes and cars, and Laguna Seca for bikes only (till Austin goes active). Auto and motorcycle racing can be very safe, given proper design consideration...racing airplanes is a much tougher nut to crack.
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I was at a baseball game once, had good seats. We were all drinking and talking when I heard the "crack" of a hit! Well, it was a line drive foul and I looked around just in time to see it heading right for my head. I don't know how I was able to move my head out of the way, but it missed hitting me right in the eye by about a millisecond. The ball cracked the empty seat behind me, it would have done serious damage to my noggin had it hit me.
So obviously, we need to ban baseball.
Or read the back of the ticket where it says in effect that by buying this ticket, you absolve them from injuries incurred by stuff like line drive fouls.
I bet tickets to Reno have a similar disclaimer. Not that they won't get sued by every single person injured and the families of those killed, as well as a bunch of other people there just because. They will.
There's one thing that does sort of bother me about airshows, at least. Not sure about Reno, never been. That's that the planes sometimes fly over the spectators. I guess they figure they fly over people/houses/towns all the time so it's no big deal. In radio controlled model aviation, where the planes are much smaller and less energetic, it is strictly forbidden to fly behind the flight line at an event. So it was always disconcerting to me to see full scale planes fly behind the flightline.
I realize this guy likely had a mechanical failure that hindered his ability to accurately control his flight path, but it seems like the pattern they fly is awfully close to the spectators. Especially at the end of the circuit where this crash occurred, where the planes must absolutely complete that turn to avoid overflying the crowd. At the other end of the front straight, for example, if the pilot couldn't complete the turn, he'd be heading off away from the crowd or at least away from the circuit parallel to the grandstands.
I'm not complaining, I think the saying is "You pays your money and you takes your chances". A tragic event all around, but from the dawn of aviation and barnstorming, the crowds have shown up because of the risk factor. No one wants to see a crash, but no one wants to miss one, either.
This seems to have been a particularly tragic season. A wing walker fell during a routine, and an aerobatic performer crashed at an airshow that I can recall.
I bet if Reno continues, the course layout with regards to spectators will be changed. It wouldn't surprise me (but I'd hate to see it happen) if there are no more Reno Air Races.
So obviously, we need to ban baseball.
Or read the back of the ticket where it says in effect that by buying this ticket, you absolve them from injuries incurred by stuff like line drive fouls.
I bet tickets to Reno have a similar disclaimer. Not that they won't get sued by every single person injured and the families of those killed, as well as a bunch of other people there just because. They will.
There's one thing that does sort of bother me about airshows, at least. Not sure about Reno, never been. That's that the planes sometimes fly over the spectators. I guess they figure they fly over people/houses/towns all the time so it's no big deal. In radio controlled model aviation, where the planes are much smaller and less energetic, it is strictly forbidden to fly behind the flight line at an event. So it was always disconcerting to me to see full scale planes fly behind the flightline.
I realize this guy likely had a mechanical failure that hindered his ability to accurately control his flight path, but it seems like the pattern they fly is awfully close to the spectators. Especially at the end of the circuit where this crash occurred, where the planes must absolutely complete that turn to avoid overflying the crowd. At the other end of the front straight, for example, if the pilot couldn't complete the turn, he'd be heading off away from the crowd or at least away from the circuit parallel to the grandstands.
I'm not complaining, I think the saying is "You pays your money and you takes your chances". A tragic event all around, but from the dawn of aviation and barnstorming, the crowds have shown up because of the risk factor. No one wants to see a crash, but no one wants to miss one, either.
This seems to have been a particularly tragic season. A wing walker fell during a routine, and an aerobatic performer crashed at an airshow that I can recall.
I bet if Reno continues, the course layout with regards to spectators will be changed. It wouldn't surprise me (but I'd hate to see it happen) if there are no more Reno Air Races.
gearhound
Lunatic Member
My wife refuses to go see our son race his drag car.
She's terrified of something bad happening to him!
I told her, that he has a roll cage, and that he's smart enough to wear all the proper racing gear.
I also told her, that he could get run over by a car just walking to the mailbox.
Steve
She's terrified of something bad happening to him!
I told her, that he has a roll cage, and that he's smart enough to wear all the proper racing gear.
I also told her, that he could get run over by a car just walking to the mailbox.
Steve
Ghog
Addictive Personality
Yes, yes yes! Very well said. Make your choice, but allow others to make their own choices. Some things must be legislated, like speed limits. I pay taxes, and I want others' speeds controlled on public (mine and yours) highways for MY safety, not theirs. However, I do not think one should be required to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle on the same highway, because his lack of a helmet does NOT affect my safety. This air race may have been on public property (airport), I don't know, but it was a privately held event and doesn't affect my safety or anyone else's who didn't choose to be on that part of the airport property. As long as my choice doesn't affect others in public places, or harm others who have no way of escaping the risk (ie children or mentally handicapped), I should not be told "yes you may" or "no, you may not".
I hope this doesn't come across as political, because it was not intended to be. If moderators feel it goes to far, please delete and let me know.
kneeOhFight
Addicted Member
Jack Roush Had Connection With Pilot Killed In Reno
interesting article, including comments on the incident by Roush, also a long time pilot
http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/c...ction-with-pilot-killed-in-air-races-in-reno/
interesting article, including comments on the incident by Roush, also a long time pilot
http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/c...ction-with-pilot-killed-in-air-races-in-reno/
That was a really nice article. Sad, too.
usedto
Lunatic Member
It's interesting how people perceive what is or isn't a reasonable risk to take, and why.
Back in the late 70s I drove a drag boat that belonged to a friend of our family. He didn't want to drive it, so I got the job. My father was livid when he found out. Every time we'd get ready to go to a race, I would hear the same story about how dangerous it was, and how dumb I was for driving it, etc.
At the same time, though, I had a quite lucrative job that on occasion required me to climb to the top of an 60' grain elevator that extended up from a 20' roof of a warehouse, in the wind and rain, with no safety belt, no safety cage on the ladder, and no catwalk or rail at the top. He thought THAT was just peachy-dandy, since I was paid so well to do it.
Back in the late 70s I drove a drag boat that belonged to a friend of our family. He didn't want to drive it, so I got the job. My father was livid when he found out. Every time we'd get ready to go to a race, I would hear the same story about how dangerous it was, and how dumb I was for driving it, etc.
At the same time, though, I had a quite lucrative job that on occasion required me to climb to the top of an 60' grain elevator that extended up from a 20' roof of a warehouse, in the wind and rain, with no safety belt, no safety cage on the ladder, and no catwalk or rail at the top. He thought THAT was just peachy-dandy, since I was paid so well to do it.
diamondsouled
Recycle belly button lint!
Apparently 18 pilots have died on that course since 1964.
Holy cow, has this gone farther than necessary. I apologize for not checking in sooner, but I've been working a big tournament this weekend and I've been away from the internet for 12 hours+ a day.
Let me clarify my previous comments, and correct some serious misreading of what I actually said.
Yes, I voiced my personal opinion that air shows, as they're put on today, should end. However that happens, whether or not the organizers make dramatic changes in the staging of such shows, or otherwise, was not the point. To make this clear, my statements were my own personal opinions, nothing more and nothing less, and like all members, I'm allowed to voice my personal opinions, as long as they're not disrespectful or otherwise in violation of AK rules, and they weren't.
In addition, if you read what I said, I absolutely, positively did NOT make any suggestion whatsoever that risk should be removed from anybody's personal life. In fact, I said the opposite. Risk is a wonderful part of life. Life would be boring without risk. I am not in any way suggesting that anybody should spend their life hiding under the bed. When I'm out on rural roads, away from anybody else, I like to drive cars and motorcycles fast. Very fast. Very, very fast. That's my personal decision to accept that risk. I'm about 93% decided I'm going to go skydiving before I die. At least once. Hopefully, the dying part and the skydiving part won't be simultaneous.
My concern about air shows, contrary to some of the statements made after my post, is the folks attending air shows are NOT aware of the risk, or else assume that the risk is far less than it actually is. This is not the same as attending NASCAR races. Cars no longer go into the stands, and haven't for many, many years. There are safety fences and guardrails specifically designed to prevent such occurrences. I'm absolutely convinced that the vast majority of attendees at air shows are blissfully ignorant of the probability of an airplane crashing into the stands at 400+ mph, and what will happen within milliseconds of such an event. Unfortunately, the possibility of such a thing happening is very, very real.
The point of my original post was to point out that, in my personal opinion, the risk of such an accident far outweighs any possible entertainment value, no matter how much you enjoy, as I do, watching totally cool airplanes do their thing. I believe that unless the airspace within which planes maneuver at air shows is moved completely away from any possible crash into the viewing area, or else there is a much more overt policy to inform spectators of the risks involved, then the future staging of airshows will have to go through a major change.
And I think it's coming. That's all. Just my two cents worth. As always, fwiw, and ymmv.
Let me clarify my previous comments, and correct some serious misreading of what I actually said.
Yes, I voiced my personal opinion that air shows, as they're put on today, should end. However that happens, whether or not the organizers make dramatic changes in the staging of such shows, or otherwise, was not the point. To make this clear, my statements were my own personal opinions, nothing more and nothing less, and like all members, I'm allowed to voice my personal opinions, as long as they're not disrespectful or otherwise in violation of AK rules, and they weren't.
In addition, if you read what I said, I absolutely, positively did NOT make any suggestion whatsoever that risk should be removed from anybody's personal life. In fact, I said the opposite. Risk is a wonderful part of life. Life would be boring without risk. I am not in any way suggesting that anybody should spend their life hiding under the bed. When I'm out on rural roads, away from anybody else, I like to drive cars and motorcycles fast. Very fast. Very, very fast. That's my personal decision to accept that risk. I'm about 93% decided I'm going to go skydiving before I die. At least once. Hopefully, the dying part and the skydiving part won't be simultaneous.
My concern about air shows, contrary to some of the statements made after my post, is the folks attending air shows are NOT aware of the risk, or else assume that the risk is far less than it actually is. This is not the same as attending NASCAR races. Cars no longer go into the stands, and haven't for many, many years. There are safety fences and guardrails specifically designed to prevent such occurrences. I'm absolutely convinced that the vast majority of attendees at air shows are blissfully ignorant of the probability of an airplane crashing into the stands at 400+ mph, and what will happen within milliseconds of such an event. Unfortunately, the possibility of such a thing happening is very, very real.
The point of my original post was to point out that, in my personal opinion, the risk of such an accident far outweighs any possible entertainment value, no matter how much you enjoy, as I do, watching totally cool airplanes do their thing. I believe that unless the airspace within which planes maneuver at air shows is moved completely away from any possible crash into the viewing area, or else there is a much more overt policy to inform spectators of the risks involved, then the future staging of airshows will have to go through a major change.
And I think it's coming. That's all. Just my two cents worth. As always, fwiw, and ymmv.
28.
From Reuters, just a few minutes ago:
"The thrill has been a deadly one on occasion, with a total of 28 people killed in the history of the race flown every year in Reno since 1964, Draper said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...E78F6U420110918?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
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shelly_d
Not An Audiophool
I offer my condolences to all involved.
To offer a perhaps a bit more light on the pilots control issues, the wings had been shortened by perhaps as much as 10', 5 on each side, according to MSNBC. Also shortened were the ailerons, from 66" to 32", again according to the same source.
This would be a double impact to the ability to control the roll of the aircraft. The shortened span of the ailerons would reduce the amount of control force they could exert on the back of the wing. Shortening the wing span would move the center of pressure that the ailerons create inward along the wing reducing the moment arm they act through, further reducing the roll control. Why do I bring that up? A noted issue with the P51, even in stock from, is roll control at low speeds and high power. A P51 in landing configuration that applies full power too quickly will roll right over on its back, despite full opposite aileron. If that pitch up the plane did led to a high speed stall, there simply may not have been enough roll control to keep the aircraft from turning turtle. This is of course more speculation then authoritative opinion, but is something to ponder on.
Whatever the cause, we can all morn the deaths and send our sympathies to the bereaved.
Shelly_D
To offer a perhaps a bit more light on the pilots control issues, the wings had been shortened by perhaps as much as 10', 5 on each side, according to MSNBC. Also shortened were the ailerons, from 66" to 32", again according to the same source.
This would be a double impact to the ability to control the roll of the aircraft. The shortened span of the ailerons would reduce the amount of control force they could exert on the back of the wing. Shortening the wing span would move the center of pressure that the ailerons create inward along the wing reducing the moment arm they act through, further reducing the roll control. Why do I bring that up? A noted issue with the P51, even in stock from, is roll control at low speeds and high power. A P51 in landing configuration that applies full power too quickly will roll right over on its back, despite full opposite aileron. If that pitch up the plane did led to a high speed stall, there simply may not have been enough roll control to keep the aircraft from turning turtle. This is of course more speculation then authoritative opinion, but is something to ponder on.
Whatever the cause, we can all morn the deaths and send our sympathies to the bereaved.
Shelly_D
I have a link to 64 pictures some frame by frame of the tragedy at Reno.
I think I stumbled on at the Att Yahoo home page. It's the Reno
Newspaper. Having been to Reno air races in the past it a was fabulous
spectacle any time that I went. Unfortunately Friday's crash is a reminder as
to the danger to pilots and spectators alike. Maybe the FAA can come up with some
some additional safety input if and when they resume the air races .
Keeping in mind the age of the warbirds it is surely a technical challenge
even though modified to keep them in the air
. I think I stumbled on at the Att Yahoo home page. It's the Reno
Newspaper. Having been to Reno air races in the past it a was fabulous
spectacle any time that I went. Unfortunately Friday's crash is a reminder as
to the danger to pilots and spectators alike. Maybe the FAA can come up with some
some additional safety input if and when they resume the air races .
Keeping in mind the age of the warbirds it is surely a technical challenge
even though modified to keep them in the air
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110917...eds-calls?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Local News
regards
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diamondsouled
Recycle belly button lint!
Ah. I was cooking dinner while listening and didn't hear it clearly. Wonder what kind of waver you have to sign?
28 killed in 47 years, wow. Dangerous sport. Must be a real adrenaline rush though.
Sharpstik
Stuck in the 70's
Hard to do..
The viewing area for the Blue Angels show encompasses 8 miles around here. I live 5 miles from the base and those things fly a few hundred feet above my house even when practicing. A few years ago one went down taking out 2 houses.
Atlantic City recently had one. Over the beach and ocean. Only place you can do that.
I was at the Reno races once. I flew in with my dad in his Bonanza in 1987. We had pit passes! Chuck Yeagher and Bob Hoover were there, speaking and flying. Cliff Robertson (RIP) was there, too.The start of the unlimited gold race is something I will not forget. Condolances to those who lost loved ones.
onepixel
.
I just go this message from a friend who was at the show.
"I'm alive. But it was close. The plane impacted in front of the left side of the viewing stands. I was sitting on the right side. The flying debris hurt or killed people. For a second, I thought the debris would fly and hit my area. But, it didn't although a blade from the propeller slid all the way to the front of my seating area. Needless to say, everyone who saw the impact was shaken."
Condolences to the families with losses. Prayers and well wishes for a fast recovery to those hurt.
"I'm alive. But it was close. The plane impacted in front of the left side of the viewing stands. I was sitting on the right side. The flying debris hurt or killed people. For a second, I thought the debris would fly and hit my area. But, it didn't although a blade from the propeller slid all the way to the front of my seating area. Needless to say, everyone who saw the impact was shaken."
Condolences to the families with losses. Prayers and well wishes for a fast recovery to those hurt.
