Power Conditioners - do you use them and do you have a recommendation?

[DaveVoorhis]

I agree with you, should be the last thing. What dose not seem to be included in this topic is the amount of harmonic distortion on the line. In general it can range from 2.2% to 6%.

High frequency or low frequency?

If RF harmonics are present, they can be rebroadcast inside the gear and appear at the audio output as noise.

Low-frequency AF harmonics get filtered out by the power supply.

 

[GChief]

This issue has many facets. But the primary facet is, as was stated earlier, and that is noise. And as I said earlier to another poster, that while the power company needs to deliver voltage and frequency that is stable, the issue of noise goes far beyond just the power company. We have introduced a plethora of EMI/RFI generating devices by reason of the technologies used in virtually all appliances now, that's not to mention the smart grid, or other services that are now riding on the lines like BPL. It's good to take, at least, a measured approach which is started at Type 3 SPD's. You can investigate your own location for external sources of EMI/RFI and try to mitigate those as well, but as least you'll know where the bodies are buried. If you want to spend more and go beyond that, like UPS or more, then happy shopping!

Yeah, I cheat a little, I deal with all those noise issues on Navy Ships (you should try running your nice amp and Klipsch in a radar equipment room) everyday so I make all my own cables from high quality shielded cable. I also make/place shielded covers and guards where needed.

 

[GChief]

because there is no one size fits all answer.

 

[GChief]

is inside a persons house

Thankfully I know I am golden there. We live in a tiny house and I did all the power myself. All cable is shielded/armored power cable we use for our installs. Hell even the JB's, Light and switch boxes are shielded models we use at work.

 

[triode17]

That happens. I am pretty sure my PAS2 and maggie amp could care less as long as the line voltage is close. I could be wrong but hey that is ok.

That's what I always think. A tube amp should barely feel a surge. A little blip or a click through the system, the filter and bypass caps should grab that.

 

[dosmalo]

I've done the AM radio thing in the past and found the worst offenders in my house were older ceiling fan rheostats.
I'm not sure it showed up in my system but it sure did with the AM radio.

 

[triode17]

The propensity to brownout (under-voltage) or spikes (over-voltage) can vary greatly depending on location and service providers.

Is brownout your concern because of computer music equipment? I use a CD player and occasionally a CD recorder or reproducer but they are more 'stand-alone' depending on external software. I don't think a brownout will affect them. Plus, my main power strip has a digital voltmeter and ammeter so i monitor the line when i play music. Back in the 60's, a brownout meant they would drop the line voltage to about 110v. So your appliances would be usable, but at a reduced level. Now, there are "rolling brownouts" which means they shut areas off completely for a set time. That would suck.

 

[quaddriver]

the only power conditioner I would worry about is the one inside the equipment...aka the power supply.

keep it modern and up to snuff

otherwise put me in the column of those who feel they are the juice from sqozen slithering reptiles...

 

[GChief]

the only power conditioner I would worry about is the one inside the equipment...aka the power supply.

What?? You mean it’s already happening

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

High frequency or low frequency?

If RF harmonics are present, they can be rebroadcast inside the gear and appear at the audio output as noise.

Low-frequency AF harmonics get filtered out by the power supply.

It may not work that way, In the example below, low frequency harmonics are added to the basic AC mains frequency. There are no separate low frequency signals going into the piece of gear. What there is, is a distorted wave form. In a perfect world this could be fairly benign.







In the real world, as shown in the video there may be unwanted electrical noise that is not harmonically related to the AC mains frequency. This may cause a somewhat nasty AC mains waveform as seen in the picture above and some gear may not play nicely when presented with a nasty AC mains waveform.

And remember, if unwanted electrical noise makes it into a piece of gear, that does not necessarily mean that it will be heard as noise at the output. It may just slightly modify the final audio waveform, changing its sound quality/character.

To be clear, the above is just some general information. The actual results are likely to be quite variable and unpredictable especially in terms of subjective sound quality.

 

[GChief]

Just a statement/point/question? The only time we used power supplies/conditioners/regulators is when a piece of equipment did on have one onboard or come with one. To the point a few posts up, doesn’t the piece of equipments PS already do this?

 

[Guest125]

Thankfully I know I am golden there. We live in a tiny house and I did all the power myself. All cable is shielded/armored power cable we use for our installs. Hell even the JB's, Light and switch boxes are shielded models we use at work.

Unless you are off the grid, every house in your proximity is also connected to you. So are their appliances, and their MIMO and any other device the spews EMI/RFI. Have a great day.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

It may not work that way, In the example below, low frequency harmonics are added to the basic AC mains frequency. There are no separate low frequency signals going into the piece of gear. What there is, is a distorted wave form. In a perfect world this could be fairly benign.
...
In the real world, as shown in the video there may be unwanted electrical noise that is not harmonically related to the AC mains frequency. This may cause a somewhat nasty AC mains waveform as seen in the picture above and some gear may not play nicely when presented with a nasty AC mains waveform.

True, though given this pure sine wave, hastily hacked out in Excel:


Wouldn't a slight distortion of it (roughly estimated at 5% or so) with LF harmonics, like this...


...present less of problem for the power supply to turn into smooth DC than the same sine wave with higher-frequency (but still roughly 5%) harmonics?


(Ignore the spelling mistake... Oops.)

 

[GChief]

Unless you are off the grid, every house in your proximity is also connected to you. So are their appliances, and their MIMO and any other device the spews EMI/RFI. Have a great day.

You think thats bad try doing controls signals in a Destroyers engine room. Not nearly as bad in a house

 

[Guest125]

You think that bad try doing controls signals in a Destroyers engine room. Not nearly as bad in a house

Non sequitur. Houses are not ships, nor are ships houses and connected to the grid in single family homes. This is becoming more argumentative than informational, so let me wish you a great day.

 

[theophile]

There's a wonderful power conditioner nearby:

 

[sp58]

One and only power conditioner i use is a self build DC-Filter for the AC-Support of my complete setup. This is self build by me. Protects the transformers from DC-Line Voltages produced mainly in appartement houses with not synchrounos loads. May be a greater problem in 230V areas.
All stuff in my setup is phased out vs ground.
Inside the stuff there are enough parts after the main transformer for filtering and conditioning

 

[GChief]

Non sequitur. Houses are not ships, nor are ships houses and connected to the grid in single family homes. This is becoming more argumentative than informational, so let me wish you a great day.

All good sir

I just feel your taking the chicken little approach, but I respect your choice to do so. I am sure the answer is somewhere in the middle. And RFI is RFI and EMI is EMI, flitering and shielding are filtering and shielding.

 

[Guest125]

All good sir

I just feel your taking the chicken little approach, but I respect your choice to do so. I am sure the answer is somewhere in the middle.

I never once said "the sky is falling"... I will say lastly, if you want to place your hands over your eyes and say, "I can't see that..." you are certainly welcome to. The o-scope doesn't lie.

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

To the point a few posts up, doesn’t the piece of equipments PS already do this?

Again, it depends. I depends on the actual noise/distortion of the AC mains power and the design of the power supply.

Below is a simple example.



This can apply to the power transformer of our vintage gear. Once the common mode noise, and note that it is common mode noise, makes it past the power transformer, it can or may modulate (change), for want of a better term, the audio signal. This may or may not be subjectively audible to the listener.

True, though given this pure sine wave, hastily hacked out in Excel:
View attachment 1267873

Wouldn't a slight distortion of it (roughly estimated at 5% or so) with LF harmonics, like this...
View attachment 1267874

...present less of problem for the power supply to turn into smooth DC than this higher-frequency (but still roughly 5%) distorted sine wave?
View attachment 1267875

(Ignore the spelling mistake... Oops.)

I am not sure that I follow your question. The basic component of our AC mains power will be 50HZ/60HZ.

Of course you can take a 1 GHz sine wave and add to it the first 2 odd harmonics and get the same waveform shape as doing the same thing with a 50HZ/60HZ sine wave.

Inside the stuff there are enough parts after the main transformer for filtering and conditioning

For those that say the internal parts of the power supply are more than adequate, see the picture below, and yes it is somewhat of an exaggeration, just used for the sake of clarity.


Okay for the sake of example, lets say that the beginning of a powerful musical note happens at the exact time as the dip (the red circles) in the AC mains waveform. What do you think will happen?. The power supply will be starved for voltage. Or what do you think will happen if the power supply is repeatedly, periodically starved for voltage. This may not do nice things to the audio output.

Again, my example is somewhat of an exaggeration for the sake of clarity. But even a smaller amount of distortion may result in a change in what is called the load step response of the power supply. Depending on its severity, it may or may not make a subjective difference in the sound quality.

Again, see my post regarding common mode noise. Not all power supplies are created equal when it comes to dealing with common mode noise.

To be clear, I am not saying that outboard AC mains power conditioning is always needed for everyone and that there will always be a subjective change in the sound quality.