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Power Conditioners - do you use them and do you have a recommendation?

The sound quality in my system is way better in evening+nighttime than daytime..
Has been like that in every house I have lived.
Both power mains and air everywhere is filled with noise,
and any audiophile would be wise to sort out that potensiale issue before venturing into high-end equipment.
It's questionable design of "high-end equipment" if it can't filter out line and environmental noise. Technically, that's straightforward enough that it shouldn't need external filtering. If it does, there are questions you should be asking the manufacturer...
 
We always installed power conditioner/voltage regulators for systems in old Mexico. The voyages could be as high as 135 volts in the day time and down to 90 volts I n the evening. Tube amps without rigid power supplies don't do well. SS amps don't much like to be starved either, especially when used in large discos. Churches and small PA systems in meeting rooms weren't that demanding. But in order to keep the amps from crashing, be they To a, JBL, Altec QSC, Crown or Crest we had to use voltage regulators. Even Mac amps needed steady voltage to operate at their best. Most amps don't have the margins Mac amps have and there fore are very susceptible to marginal electrical service. Now voltage conditioners are suppose to make the voltage to the system cleaner and prevent all sorts of different kings of issues from entering the amplification chain. I would rather spend the money on better components than on a conditioner. Really great components have their own abilities to make sure interference doesn't effect the sound they are producing.
 
I use Furman SS-6B surge protectors on all my systems, and my tv/sound bar/blu ray setup. They're way more heavy duty than cheap power strips, and supposedly filter RF and EMI interference. That's about as far as I'm going to go towards 'power conditioning '.

I have to change my answer. I have added a Panamax M5400PM to my main system.;)
 
If your house has "any" CFL/LED lighting + any SMPS operating electronic equipment, & any neighbor`s, as well, that are sharing your mains drop transformer, then you have dirty power throughout your house`s power distribution, not including any intentional, or un radiated RFI that might be superimposed on them..

The headlong drive for "green" and "cheap, as possible", trend for the manufacturing, & use of SMPS`s powering more electronic devices, where practical, is making this a greater problem & concern.

Some time spent watching a 10 meg, or higher bandwidth scope, connected to various load center branch circuits can be a eye opener !
I`d rather not have any of that power line pollution entering any of my house`s many room`s A/V equipment, and my 2 electronic work bench`s test equipment, as well as the electronic equipment being tested.

Whether I could ever discern any SQ, or video display improvements by using quality power conditioners, wasn`t as important, as the piece of mind, that that EVER INCREASING, and nasty mains AC pollution wasn`t making it`s way into my electronics, and the knowledge that what residual AC line dirt that might be left, should be readily, and easily(hopefully) handled by the A/V device`s own power supply`s filtering.

If a person using a "quality & well current sized & grounded conditioner" is unable to discern any perceived improvement in their A/V electronics, well IMHO. either you lack the perception, system/s resolution, or "incredibly", you have very clean main`s power..

Every pro level recording studio control room that I`ve ever visited since the mid eighties, both sound or video, has all their studio equipment power conditioned, spike/surge, and regulated with high quality units..

The better one`s also had power conditioners in the studio`s for whatever musician might need to power their instrument/s, and or amplifier/s.
FWIW; and my $.02`s opinion/experience. :blah:

Enjoy the music, as you see fit, folks. :)
 
It's questionable design of "high-end equipment" if it can't filter out line and environmental noise. Technically, that's straightforward enough that it shouldn't need external filtering. If it does, there are questions you should be asking the manufacturer...

While this certainly is easy to say and may be true in theory, my experience and that of many others I trust says otherwise.

A very clear cut example of my own occurred back in 2006 when at work I moved into a new office in a large and modern university-owned biomedical science research building. The building itself was state-of-the-art, having just been completed a year or two previous.

Although there were no industrial-level equipment, there were dozens and dozens of laboratory devices and appliances (e.g. centrifuges, hot rooms, cold rooms, shakers, incubators, etc...), as well as a clinical research MRI machine in the basement, and of course the extensive IT infrastructure needed to support several hundred scientific researchers.

I dragged in 2 speakers and a Linn Classik (CD player/integrated amp combo) that had been working fine at home, and plugged in the single power cord.

Immediately I could hear what sounded like some type of soft intermittent and variable electrical noise through the speakers. But much more concerning was a periodic loud "pop", the kind that makes you immediately concerned whether your speaker drivers are still intact. I tried every available outlet, as well waited until the next week in case something temporary was going on.

However the problems persisted, and I had no choice but to leave the system unplugged and unused. I went online and ordered a PS Audio Duet power conditioner which arrived several days later. Plugged the Linn into the conditioner, and all the problems I experienced previously were gone, completely. Plugged it back into the wall, problems still there.

Interesting that a couple years later I sold the system to a friend and colleague whose lab and office were a couple of floors above mine, but forgot to tell him about the conditioner. About an hour after he took them up, I get a call asking if the system had been working OK, as he was hearing some type of interference. He obtained his own conditioner, and problem solved again.

This suggested that for whatever reason, the power supply in the little Linn unit was not able to "filter out" something present in the electrical system of this building; which apparently had no effect on all the other electrical equipment in use, including the computers.

Clearly the Linn Classik isn't "high-end", but certainly it is a well engineered device that sounds quite nice under most circumstances.

Now if "electrical noise" can have clearly audible effects in an audio system under some conditions, I do not think it much of a stretch that much more subtle effects are possible under other conditions, such as in the home.

I was actually surprised that the little PS Audio conditioner took care of the problem so well and completely, I was previously skeptical about power conditioning other than surge suppression. Now I use some type of conditioning device on every single audio and visual component in our house and see no reason to look back.
 
While this certainly is easy to say and may be true in theory, my experience and that of many others I trust says otherwise.

A very clear cut example of my own occurred back in 2006 when at work I moved into a new office in a large and modern university-owned biomedical science research building. The building itself was state-of-the-art, having just been completed a year or two previous.

Although there were no industrial-level equipment, there were dozens and dozens of laboratory devices and appliances (e.g. centrifuges, hot rooms, cold rooms, shakers, incubators, etc...), as well as a clinical research MRI machine in the basement, and of course the extensive IT infrastructure needed to support several hundred scientific researchers.

I dragged in 2 speakers and a Linn Classik (CD player/integrated amp combo) that had been working fine at home, and plugged in the single power cord.

Immediately I could hear what sounded like some type of soft intermittent and variable electrical noise through the speakers. But much more concerning was a periodic loud "pop", the kind that makes you immediately concerned whether your speaker drivers are still intact. I tried every available outlet, as well waited until the next week in case something temporary was going on.

However the problems persisted, and I had no choice but to leave the system unplugged and unused. I went online and ordered a PS Audio Duet power conditioner which arrived several days later. Plugged the Linn into the conditioner, and all the problems I experienced previously were gone, completely. Plugged it back into the wall, problems still there.

Interesting that a couple years later I sold the system to a friend and colleague whose lab and office were a couple of floors above mine, but forgot to tell him about the conditioner. About an hour after he took them up, I get a call asking if the system had been working OK, as he was hearing some type of interference. He obtained his own conditioner, and problem solved again.

This suggested that for whatever reason, the power supply in the little Linn unit was not able to "filter out" something present in the electrical system of this building; which apparently had no effect on all the other electrical equipment in use, including the computers.

Clearly the Linn Classik isn't "high-end", but certainly it is a well engineered device that sounds quite nice under most circumstances.
This is exactly my point -- it may be regarded as a well engineered device, but its susceptibility to interference is evidence that it isn't.

I think some manufacturers may have been -- or are -- sloppy with their engineering, relying on reputation and external power conditioners to make up for it.

By the way, computers and appliances generally aren't susceptible to interference. They'll run the same in an electrically noisy environment as a quiet one, up to the point that the environment is so noisy that nothing works -- at which point you've probably got more problems than mere interference.

It's audio, video, and some electronic test equipment that tends to be susceptible to interference, if it's not well-shielded and filtered from the factory.
 
This is exactly my point -- it may be regarded as a well engineered device, but its susceptibility to interference is evidence that it isn't.

I think some manufacturers may have been -- or are -- sloppy with their engineering, relying on reputation and external power conditioners to make up for it.

By the way, computers and appliances generally aren't susceptible to interference. They'll run the same in an electrically noisy environment as a quiet one, up to the point that the environment is so noisy that nothing works -- at which point you've probably got more problems than mere interference.

It's audio, video, and some electronic test equipment that tends to be susceptible to interference, if it's not well-shielded and filtered from the factory.

Well if that really is your point, why not just say something like, "Yes, often noise present in the electrical supply can have negative audible effects in a large number of consumer hi-fi audio components, and a power conditioner may help considerably in these circumstances."

Instead, when somebody claims that power conditioning helps in their system (or is looking for advice about trying one), your response, at least to me, is more along the lines of: "If you think a power conditioner is helping, then either, A) you are imagining it (psycho-acoustic effect), or B) the 'questionable design' of your 'high-end equipment' is to blame, because any competently-designed piece of gear does not require external power conditioning." Apologies for putting words in your mouth, but that is my interpretation of your stance.

Now getting back to a Linn Classik (K) CLEARLY benefiting from a power conditioner. Again, this piece is certainly not what I consider "high-end", but I do believe it is competently designed and assembled.

If not, there would be literally hundreds of thousands of pieces of gear around the planet that likely are also not "competently designed", that would nonetheless benefit from external power conditioning.

I think it better to relate personal experience on the issue and give productive advice, rather than deride the design quality of others' gear.
 
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To provide yet another automotive analogy, on a lark, I once tried to start my Chevy Luv on a balmy February morning at Arctic Circle Hot Springs, north of Fairbanks, Alaska, when it was still minus forty degrees, without plugging it in to warm it up. Just because it caught and ran (?!!) doesn't mean a less competently designed vehicle wouldn't benefit from battery and/or block heater, to help deal with adverse conditions, perhaps even ones exceeding design assumptions.

Edit: I recently put in two of the Tripp-Lite Isobar 6-outlet units, one in each plug of the duplex on a dedicated line. The surge-protection these and similar units provide depends on internal devices that can be "used up" by absorbing the surges. The units E-stat linked to have a light labeled Protection Present to indicate that these devices are still functioning. If the Protection Present light ever goes out, that's an automatic warranty replacement. :)
 
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Well if that really is your point, why not just say something like, "Yes, often noise present in the electrical supply can have negative audible effects in a large number of consumer hi-fi audio components, and a power conditioner may help considerably in these circumstances."

Instead, when somebody claims that power conditioning helps in their system (or is looking for advice about trying one), your response, at least to me, is more along the lines of: "If you think a power conditioner is helping, then either, A) you are imagining it (psycho-acoustic effect), or B) the 'questionable design' of your 'high-end equipment' is to blame, because any competently-designed piece of gear does not require external power conditioning." Apologies for putting words in your mouth, but that is my interpretation of your stance.

Now getting back to a Linn Classik (K) CLEARLY benefiting from a power conditioner. Again, this piece is certainly not what I consider "high-end", but I do believe it is competently designed and assembled.

If not, there would be literally hundreds of thousands of pieces of gear around the planet that likely are also not "competently designed", that would nonetheless benefit from external power conditioning.

I think it better to relate personal experience on the issue and give productive advice, rather than deride the design quality of others' gear.
My intent isn't to deride gear, but to encourage consumers to press manufacturers not to let standards slip. Per my post #81:

It's questionable design of "high-end equipment" if it can't filter out line and environmental noise. Technically, that's straightforward enough that it shouldn't need external filtering. If it does, there are questions you should be asking the manufacturer...

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

unshielded_Rega_Elex-R_3.jpg

There is no internal shielding or filtering. The power leads run freely around the interior, so it's very likely that external shielding and filtering -- i.e., power conditioning -- would help.

Compare that to this:

shielded-yamaha-rxv1-av-receiver.jpg

Note the copper barrier between the power supply components on the left and the audio components in the middle, and the shielding on the tuner and control components on the right. The power lead is short and confined to a small region in the upper left and goes nowhere near the audio circuitry. This unit is well-shielded, and likely would not benefit from external power conditioning.

These two pieces of gear are very roughly at the same level(-ish) though the latter is an home theatre amp; the former stereo. I imagine some might consider the former -- a Rega Elex R -- to be more "high end" than the latter, a Yamaha RXV-1.

Why is that?

Notably, the Rega is consumer-grade construction. Aside from the use of a toroidal transformer and extension on the volume control, it's essentially the same internal construction standards I can find in any £30 DVD player.

As consumers -- and this is my point -- we should be demanding better for our money. We should complain if we see high-end (or consumer!) standards slip to the point that the manufacturer is selling low-end construction under a high-end badge.

Which means we shouldn't have to add a power conditioner, when it would be relatively inexpensive for the manufacturer to put all the power supply components (except for perhaps the transformer) in a grounded box. That's already standard (and inexpensive) construction for personal computers, servers, and many laptops, so it's not something new. Of course, they use switching power supplies which need shielding to not emit broadband noise, but as the Yamaha (above) shows, it's possible to achieve the good shielding with a linear power supply.

Note that you don't get better results from shielding and filtering the internal power supply and adding an external power conditioner unless the internal shielding and filtering are inadequate. If the internal shielding and filtering are adequate -- and there's no reason they shouldn't be in every piece of reasonably-priced consumer gear, let alone high end gear -- then external power conditioning won't improve the results.

Indeed, it won't be needed at all.
 
Hi Everyone,

Got a question for the collective wisdom of the group - been thinking about purchasing a power conditioner. But, I'm having trouble determining how many AMPs I need. I've look at the back of my receiver and I've checked the owner's manual for a couple of my devices but all I find is watt information. How do you determine how many AMPs you need for a power conditioner? And, if you use one do you have a recommendation?
Audiophiles generally don't know what they are hearing. The whole audiophile culture is built on marketing and confirmation bias. :rolleyes:
 
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Hi Everyone,

Got a question for the collective wisdom of the group - been thinking about purchasing a power conditioner. But, I'm having trouble determining how many AMPs I need. I've look at the back of my receiver and I've checked the owner's manual for a couple of my devices but all I find is watt information. How do you determine how many AMPs you need for a power conditioner? And, if you use one do you have a recommendation?

Volts times Amps = Watts

So divide Watts by 120 (Voltage from your outlet) to get amps.

Shelly_D
 
I would really like to see an objective analysis of a device's output comparing clean undistorted mains power vs "dirty" power, polluted variously, and in combination with, impulse noise, white noise, RF interference, harmonics. It's not the input power that we are concerned with (or at least not what I am concerned with) but rather the device's output. Does the noise or distortion of the device change when the power get dirty? If so, can it be quantified? If so, how bad does the power have to get before it effects output?

As a side issue, does noisey or distorted power generate additional heat in the power supply components?

In short, just how much (or how small) an issue is "dirty" power. Given the nature of a linear power supply, with filtering and perhaps regulation, I suspect most of out equipment can tolerate quit a bit of noise and distortion before it impares the output, but my suspicions are nowhere near the weight of hard data. Unfortunately I don't have anywhere near enough equipment to be able to run the testing this subject would deserve.

Shelly_D
 
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