Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods
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I think we can have a lot of confidence here since we're basically mimicking a lot of commercially available cleaning solutions: distilled water, alcohol, nonionic surfactant. I don't see a down side other than the already stated issues of having to buy a fairly big bottle of surfactant and the fiddly process of trying to dissolve it. But those aren't so bad.
The main thing to me has been finding a source of the surfactant. Last time I was in a thread along these lines (I think we were discussing Discwasher fluid and its formula), I didn't know where to get it. As an old school chemist, I never thought of Amazon for this. Back in the ancient days (you know, the 80s and 90s?), you ordered this stuff from a lab supply house and there was no Interweb.
The main thing to me has been finding a source of the surfactant. Last time I was in a thread along these lines (I think we were discussing Discwasher fluid and its formula), I didn't know where to get it. As an old school chemist, I never thought of Amazon for this. Back in the ancient days (you know, the 80s and 90s?), you ordered this stuff from a lab supply house and there was no Interweb.
hi*ball
Records & Coffee
I ended up buying a 500 ml bottle of Triton X-100 here: http://www.amazon.com/Triton-X-100-...8&qid=1449008277&sr=8-2&keywords=triton+x-100
Then bought this so that I can measure what I need
And then put the 10% mixture into this squirt bottle:
So that I will be able to put it into my main cleaning solution squirt bottle.
I have thought about selling the 10% mixture in 4 ounce bottles like these:
Since I am going to have a LOT of Triton!
Then bought this so that I can measure what I need
And then put the 10% mixture into this squirt bottle:
So that I will be able to put it into my main cleaning solution squirt bottle.
I have thought about selling the 10% mixture in 4 ounce bottles like these:
Since I am going to have a LOT of Triton!
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tuttebenne
Active Member
Thanks for the great info in this thread. Buying premix sounds like a great alternative for those of us who don't need all the remaining Triton. As for those who want to continue using a harsh solution because they say their vinyl will get tossed when they expire, think about the rest of us. Where do you think we get OUR vinyl from? We have a vested interest in how you take care of your vinyl. 
Davron94
Well-Known Member
I ended up buying a 500 ml bottle of Triton X-100 here: http://www.amazon.com/Triton-X-100-...8&qid=1449008277&sr=8-2&keywords=triton+x-100
Then bought this so that I can measure what I need
And then put the 10% mixture into this squirt bottle:
So that I will be able to put it into my main cleaning solution squirt bottle.
I have thought about selling the 10% mixture in 1 ounce bottles like these:
Since I am going to have a LOT of Triton!
Name your price. I'm game!
hi*ball
Records & Coffee
Hey guys. Sorry to bring up the possibility of selling something here in this thread, since it is not the right place for it.
I'm just saying down the road at some point, I might think about doing it, since the Triton bottle makes a LOT of cleaning solution. I am really looking forward to cleaning with this. I should have everything by Monday it looks like.
I'm just saying down the road at some point, I might think about doing it, since the Triton bottle makes a LOT of cleaning solution. I am really looking forward to cleaning with this. I should have everything by Monday it looks like.
This is an interesting one. The active component is a silahydrocarbon mixed with a small amount of tris(phenoxyphenyl)phosphate, a mixture first developed as a dry lubricant for aerospace. It was invented by the Ball Bros corporation (the very same one that makes those glass jars for preserving) and was originally called VacKote. Some great surface chemists worked on this invention, including Marion Fulk, and as a result, the Ball corp. quickly became a leader in the aerospace industry since the lube doesn't evaporate and lasts forever, even in a radiation rich environment. Hence, it was perfect for greasing metal parts on satellites and, in fact, was used to lube the wheels on the Apollo land rover!. They later re-packaged the lube for records and changed the name to Soundguard Record Preservative (they also made a cleaner and sold them together). Their patent expired a few years ago so I think the formula is now marketed by another group, but it has a fascinating history. Not something I think we need on our records though as, due to its incredible stability, you can never get rid of it. Chemically, it's more like GroOve lube than Last as a surface treatment.
Amazing stuff Vince, cool story. Curious what "silahydrocarbon" actually is. Sounds like a hydrocarbon with one or more carbons replaced with silicon? Or is 'sila' short for 'silane' which is a different thing. Whoever came up with the phosphate angle, that's just nuts. Lube skillz level 1000.
AvFan
Super Member
I got all my supplies and some time to clean some records this morning. I appreciate the heads up that the Triton X-100 doesn't dissolve in water right away but takes a few hours (over night in my case). I cleaned a newer record that had never been cleaned, a record I've had since new in 1974 that had been cleaned with my Dawn home brew and finally a record from the '70s that had never been cleaned. While no cleaning method will remove damage in all three cases the records had fewer pops, clicks and surface noise.
I don't know if this improvement is fully attributable to the Triton X-100 as I changed my method a bit too. First, I let the cleaning solution sit on the record for 4 or 5 minutes before giving it a light scrub versus scrubbing it pretty vigorously immediately and second, I vacuumed off the cleaning solution versus rinsing it off with RO water before doing a distilled rinse. You can tell the Triton is different than Dawn as it spreads evenly over the record's surface versus beading up and there are no bubbles. Another thing is I'm not going to hesitate to clean new records as some seem to have something (form release?) on them that results in some surface noise. All-in-all pretty good results.
Lastly, thanks again to Vince1 for starting this thread and everyone for contributing
I don't know if this improvement is fully attributable to the Triton X-100 as I changed my method a bit too. First, I let the cleaning solution sit on the record for 4 or 5 minutes before giving it a light scrub versus scrubbing it pretty vigorously immediately and second, I vacuumed off the cleaning solution versus rinsing it off with RO water before doing a distilled rinse. You can tell the Triton is different than Dawn as it spreads evenly over the record's surface versus beading up and there are no bubbles. Another thing is I'm not going to hesitate to clean new records as some seem to have something (form release?) on them that results in some surface noise. All-in-all pretty good results.
Lastly, thanks again to Vince1 for starting this thread and everyone for contributing
Davron94
Well-Known Member
I just purchased a 4oz bottle of Triton X-100 off the bay for 12 bucks, free shipping.
A couple additions I came across:
This is a great review of record chemistry, particularly with respect to choosing sleeves: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/lp_sleaves.htm
Also, you can find the patents on Google for Dishwasher solutions (#3951841 and #3965520) that refer to ingredients. Note the surfactant used is Triton, along with sodium azide (a preservative that kills microbes), a small amount of isopropanol, and a lubricant (typically polypropylene glycol). These ingredients are present in very small amounts as they are meant to be applied without a wash (e.g. just applied to their brush and wiped across the record). Hence, it is 99.9% deionized water.
This is a great review of record chemistry, particularly with respect to choosing sleeves: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/lp_sleaves.htm
Also, you can find the patents on Google for Dishwasher solutions (#3951841 and #3965520) that refer to ingredients. Note the surfactant used is Triton, along with sodium azide (a preservative that kills microbes), a small amount of isopropanol, and a lubricant (typically polypropylene glycol). These ingredients are present in very small amounts as they are meant to be applied without a wash (e.g. just applied to their brush and wiped across the record). Hence, it is 99.9% deionized water.
That's what I use as well. Not cheap, but some things are worth it. One of those things you really can't make yourself economically. The pricing on these appears to be fairly firm, though occasionally some on-line retailer's have sales. Curious, where do people find the best deals on these?
WntrMute2
Super Member
What I would suggest is you get rid of the alcohol and the ilfotol and use what the chemist says are the correct surfactants.
It's not that complicated.
GPJeff
Super Member
The chemist has not given his opinion on Ilfotol yet.
Company description-
ILFORD ILFOTOL is a non-ionic wetting agent used as a final rinse before drying films. It can be used in all manual and machine processes to aid rapid even drying and so greatly reduce the risk of drying marks being formed. ILFOTOL can also be used as a final rinse before drying fibre based prints, again it promotes rapid, even drying. Additionally it can be used to clean glass and plastic lenses and filters and as an antistatic treatment.
Kceateva - I would suggest using 99% Alcohol instead of 91%.
Re: sleeves:
I watch for a sale at one of the online sellers (10 to15% typical), and buy multiples if there are quantity discounts. Coupled with somemouter sleeves, I can usually get up to the minimum for free shipping without too much trouble.
When it's time to buy I check elusive disk, music direct, sleeve city, etc and make my choice.
Been using these since the 80s and see no need to change.
Lately I use a sharpie to mark a corner of the inner sleeve after cleaning so I know which records have already been through the RCM and which could use a scrub.
I watch for a sale at one of the online sellers (10 to15% typical), and buy multiples if there are quantity discounts. Coupled with somemouter sleeves, I can usually get up to the minimum for free shipping without too much trouble.
When it's time to buy I check elusive disk, music direct, sleeve city, etc and make my choice.
Been using these since the 80s and see no need to change.
Lately I use a sharpie to mark a corner of the inner sleeve after cleaning so I know which records have already been through the RCM and which could use a scrub.
I've used Titebond II, and it works great. As someone has said elsewhere in the thread, many of these cleaning methods are likely to be done once. In my case, the benefits of the cleaning outweighed any detrimental etching compared with a clean on an HW 16.5. I did one side with the glue, the results are audibly different between the two sides. Admittedly, it is time-consuming and relatively expensive, and no way I'd use it on everything.
Dave
This makes no sense. The damage is permanent and irreparable. Besides etching, PVC breaks down and releases more HCL under acidic conditions and PVA plasticizer gets leached out by the PVA solvents. You are only imagining it is playing better because pops and clicks are gone. The fine details will be lost.
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