Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

[ripblade]

I've used Titebond II, and it works great. As someone has said elsewhere in the thread, many of these cleaning methods are likely to be done once. In my case, the benefits of the cleaning outweighed any detrimental etching compared with a clean on an HW 16.5. I did one side with the glue, the results are audibly different between the two sides. Admittedly, it is time-consuming and relatively expensive, and no way I'd use it on everything.

Dave

This makes no sense. The damage is permanent and irreparable. Besides etching, PVC breaks down and releases more HCL under acidic conditions and PVA plasticizer gets leached out by the PVA solvents. You are only imagining it is playing better because pops and clicks are gone. The fine details will be lost.

I'm with Selmerdave on this one...I've been able to restore records that no amount of scrubbing with any cleaning formula could make listenable. It's not just ticks and pops, either...slight scuffs can be straightened out, and scale from previous failed washings can be penetrated and lifted out with the PVA.

Sometimes you have to weigh the pros and cons.

 

[Selmerdave]

This makes no sense. The damage is permanent and irreparable. Besides etching, PVC breaks down and releases more HCL under acidic conditions and PVA plasticizer gets leached out by the PVA solvents. You are only imagining it is playing better because pops and clicks are gone. The fine details will be lost.

The "damage" (and whether it is audible) is also theoretical. I am imagining nothing as I have done it and listened to the results. Noise is lower, resolution is better, clarity is better. Any damage from one cleaning was imperceptible while the cleaning benefit was clear.

Dave

 

[guest110]

The "damage" (and whether it is audible) is also theoretical. I am imagining nothing as I have done it and listened to the results. Noise is lower, resolution is better, clarity is better. Any damage from one cleaning was imperceptible while the cleaning benefit was clear.

Dave

When you are comparing a dirty record to a clean one, then of course. However, the experiments on Low pH exposure and PVC record breakdown have been done (not theory). There is a reason all record companies went to acid free paper sleeves. You can do this yourself: Take a new record, clean it with a good cleaning fluid and water. Make a hi-res digital copy. Now treat it with glue. Make another digital copy afterwards. Compare the files and you will see what you have lost. The other way is to take a clear PVC lp and treat half of it with glue. You'll see the etched patter when held to light. The other effects of glue mentioned are on integrity of the vinyl and may take years to manifest themselves. If you can't hear the difference, or your system doesn't pick it up then OK. Just don't considerl it "restoring" as what you are doing goes against everything experiments and preservationists have said for the past 40 years.

 

[gusten]

The "damage" (and whether it is audible) is also theoretical. I am imagining nothing as I have done it and listened to the results. Noise is lower, resolution is better, clarity is better. Any damage from one cleaning was imperceptible while the cleaning benefit was clear.

Dave

I agree, I have done this many times. Everything is better usually.

 

[ripblade]

Make a hi-res digital copy. Now treat it with glue. Make another digital copy afterwards. Compare the files and you will see what you have lost.

In fact,I have done this. Only thing lost was the noise that rendered a record unlistenable .

 

[guest110]

Great. There is clearly a difference between those who want to preserve their records and those who just want to get them playable. I get that. You can clean with vinegar and see improvement, that doesn't mean it is good.
Rip blade, you misunderstood the experiment. There should have been no noise to start with (a NEW, CLEAN RECORD) before you digitized. I've done this experiment and it is clear, with observed effects of signal loss and high frequency noise.
A colleague in Australia has examined with an EM. The surface breakdown is quite visible. I have heard of claims showing increased friction, but have not found the papers yet.

 

[Selmerdave]

When you are comparing a dirty record to a clean one, then of course. However, the experiments on Low pH exposure and PVC record breakdown have been done (not theory). There is a reason all record companies went to acid free paper sleeves. You can do this yourself: Take a new record, clean it with a good cleaning fluid and water. Make a hi-res digital copy. Now treat it with glue. Make another digital copy afterwards. Compare the files and you will see what you have lost. The other way is to take a clear PVC lp and treat half of it with glue. You'll see the etched patter when held to light. The other effects of glue mentioned are on integrity of the vinyl and may take years to manifest themselves. If you can't hear the difference, or your system doesn't pick it up then OK. Just don't considerl it "restoring" as what you are doing goes against everything experiments and preservationists have said for the past 40 years.

As I said, I have a record that was cleaned with my VPI RCM. I used the glue on one side, and it sounds noticeable better than the RCM side. This is a record I am familiar with and listened to many times before the glue cleaning.

I'm not disputing the science, I'm saying that to whatever extent there is damage it is inaudible and outweighed by the sonic benefits of the cleaning job. Lest we forget that playing an LP also causes permanent and irreparable damage.

Dave

 

[guest110]

As I said, I have a record that was cleaned with my VPI RCM. I used the glue on one side, and it sounds noticeable better than the RCM side. This is a record I am familiar with and listened to many times before the glue cleaning.

I'm not disputing the science, I'm saying that to whatever extent there is damage it is inaudible and outweighed by the sonic benefits of the cleaning job. Lest we forget that playing an LP also causes permanent and irreparable damage.

Dave

I'm not disputing that. Just saying that this goes against what the industry has recommended. In fact, CBS records came up with a waxing solution to make sure the record surface was low friction (e.g. see http://www.google.com/patents/EP0008209A1?cl=en) since they found the records they produced were self-etching after years due to acid generation as a result of PVC breakdown. They included siloxane compounds to protect the record from stylus damage during normal playing. This coating is removable...by acetate treatment.

 

[ripblade]

.
Rip blade, you misunderstood the experiment. There should have been no noise to start with (a NEW, CLEAN RECORD) before you digitized. I've done this experiment and it is clear, with observed effects of signal loss and high frequency noise.

I guess I did...I never said I used glue on a new, clean record....mainly because there is no point for my purposes. Although I haven't observed the detrimental effects you say result from using PVA, I have observed the benefits when the alternative is the trash bin.

I suggest you try it on a record that confounds routine cleaning regimens. I think you'll find the risk is worthwhile after weighing the results.

 

[guest110]

I guess I did...I never said I used glue on a new, clean record....mainly because there is no point for my purposes. Although I haven't observed the detrimental effects you say result from using PVA, I have observed the benefits when the alternative is the trash bin.

I suggest you try it on a record that confounds routine cleaning regimens. I think you'll find the risk is worthwhile after weighing the results.

I have tried in numerous times and, as I said in my first post on the subject, IT WORKS!. I'm not disputing that at all. But at what cost? As Dave said, it is a balance. If it is a junker, then why not? What about a $1200 rare lp? What if you wanted to keep the album and pass it on to your children? There are as many scenarios as there are cleaning solutions, but for the benefit of the medium, we at least should know what we are doing or advising others to do.

Maybe for many it might be an easy adjustment, like picking a PVA glue with a neutral pH?

 

[Funky54]

Vince1 I'm currently just using Pure2 from Nitty Gritty. I apply lightly scrub and then vacuum off. I don't rinse before or after. If I have really nasty records I'll clean by hand with dish soap but then after lightly rinsing with (cringe tap water) I go to the Nitty Geitty RCM and do the pure2.

Is this process ok? I don't know what's in Pure2, but I have a bunch of it so I'd rather not change what I do for a while.

So is this all ok? I did wood glue on about 25-30 records but stopped because divorce is a bad thing. My wife will be pleased that it's not a good practice.

 

[guest110]

Funky: Glad to see you are using a vacuum-based method. I don't know what Pure2 is, but if it is meant to not be rinsed, then it is probably ~95% water with trace amounts of surfactant and 5% isopropanol. I would continue to use it for pre-play touch up of previously deep cleaned records. For more dirty stuff, go through this thread and see why a non-ionic detergent is preferred over dish soap. Also, use their Pure-zyme enzymatic cleaner if super nasty (or make your own enzymatic cleaner). Enzymes get rid of stuff that detergent alone might not. I suspect this is what the glue also does, only the enzymes are specific and do it without any surface damage.

 

[gcczep]

God, I love this thread.

I had my old Spin Clean out the other night, and for kicks and giggles, dropped about 5 drops of the 10% mix into the tank. I know you'll probably tell me that Spin Clean's ingredients won't work with tergitol, because that's my luck, but I swear my vinyl came out gloriously clean.

Except for one damned old stubborn ELO album. Had to glue that baby (some hard crusty matter over the record).

When nothing else will do, use the glue. Otherwise, tergitol is my go-to stuff.

Hello James. I wandered into this thread just to suss out the info. I have been glue cleaning like crazy the last three or so months. Results have been good. I'm thinking of using this AFTER the glue method on the ones I already did the deed on. Did you drop your mix into the water or on the brush itself with the Spin Clean solution? For the next step, did you let it air dry or wipe it down?

Also, if you have the time. Could you let me know how you made your mix? One teaspoon of Triton and 9 drops of distilled water into a jam jar? Then drop those into a squirt bottle of how much water? What was the size of the squirt bottle in ounces? Thank you in advance.

Major props to Vince for this thread...

 

[Selmerdave]

I have tried in numerous times and, as I said in my first post on the subject, IT WORKS!. I'm not disputing that at all. But at what cost? As Dave said, it is a balance. If it is a junker, then why not? What about a $1200 rare lp? What if you wanted to keep the album and pass it on to your children? There are as many scenarios as there are cleaning solutions, but for the benefit of the medium, we at least should know what we are doing or advising others to do.

Maybe for many it might be an easy adjustment, like picking a PVA glue with a neutral pH?

I wouldn't limit glue to "junkers", but I probably wouldn't go to the trouble on a new LP either. I understand your concern, but you haven't established the degree of damage from a single glue treatment. My ears tell me none, while a noticeable benefit.

Dave

 

[gusten]

Great. There is clearly a difference between those who want to preserve their records and those who just want to get them playable. I get that. You can clean with vinegar and see improvement, that doesn't mean it is good.
Rip blade, you misunderstood the experiment. There should have been no noise to start with (a NEW, CLEAN RECORD) before you digitized. I've done this experiment and it is clear, with observed effects of signal loss and high frequency noise.
A colleague in Australia has examined with an EM. The surface breakdown is quite visible. I have heard of claims showing increased friction, but have not found the papers yet.

Do You mean by a PVA glue treatment You had a signal loss? You lost groove amplitudes?

 

[guitarman50]

As I said, I have a record that was cleaned with my VPI RCM. I used the glue on one side, and it sounds noticeable better than the RCM side. This is a record I am familiar with and listened to many times before the glue cleaning.

I'm not disputing the science, I'm saying that to whatever extent there is damage it is inaudible and outweighed by the sonic benefits of the cleaning job. Lest we forget that playing an LP also causes permanent and irreparable damage.

Dave

I would bet that my RCM method would equal the glue method for getting and LP silent. It takes me about 15-20 minutes per LP with a 4 step method that includes a double rinse. When I'm finished my LP's are totally silent in between tracks.
On the weekend I did 4 LP's on Saturday and 7 on Sunday. I imagine thats more than I could have cleaned using the glue method and not as many as I could have with an Ultrasonic cleaner in that amount of time.
If we are talking about only cleaning an LP that otherwise would hit the trash bin then I'm not sure what the argument is about. If I had to choose between throwing an LP in the trash bin or using the glue method I'd throw it in the trash bin. Unless I was sure I couldn't find another copy. Then I would double or triple clean it on my RCM and be satisfied with that. I'm convinced that my RCM cleaning method gets my LP's as clean as they will ever get and that any noise left after that is just damage that the glue method wouldn't even help.

 

[dcmfan]

I do what I like with my records...you do what you like with yours.

 

[guitarman50]

View attachment 661352
I do what I like with my records...you do what you like with yours.

Well essentially I would assume thats what everyone does. I take it we're here for the information that guides us to what we like to do with our LP's.

 

[onwardjames]

Hello James. I wandered into this thread just to suss out the info. I have been glue cleaning like crazy the last three or so months. Results have been good. I'm thinking of using this AFTER the glue method on the ones I already did the deed on. Did you drop your mix into the water or on the brush itself with the Spin Clean solution? For the next step, did you let it air dry or wipe it down?

Also, if you have the time. Could you let me know how you made your mix? One teaspoon of Triton and 9 drops of distilled water into a jam jar? Then drop those into a squirt bottle of how much water? What was the size of the squirt bottle in ounces? Thank you in advance.

Major props to Vince for this thread...

Yes, Vince is a good guy.

Here's what I do, and this seems to work. Take the raw tergitol, add about 3 oz of distilled water to a tiny jam jar, and one TEASPOON of the tergitol. Don't bother trying to mix it up, just let it dissolve overnight. Mashing it about did me no good, and in the morning, it was dissolved. THIS MAKES YOUR 10-1 solution (tho I have no idea where I got my initial amounts, here on this thread somewhere, I'm sure).

Next, I add about 10 drops of 10 to 1 to a small tupperware container, and fill with about 6 oz of water, and 5 ml of 91% isopropyl alcohol. You can get a cheap eye dropper or some such with ml on the side. Found mine in the medicine cabinet. Then, I use a paint pad to dip into the solution, and let the solution slosh over my records, covering the labels with dent pullers. After thoroughly covering the record, and LETTING IT SIT A MINUTE, I scrub for a few minutes, then rinse with plain ol' tap water. Next the record may/may not go into the standard SpinClean solution, and finally, a vac dry with hi*ball's amazing econowand. Like I've stated before, Vince has a point on the acidity of glue, tho I'm not sure it is as damaging as feared. Still, I've backed away from all but the ugliest of records with that amazing method.

I wouldn't limit glue to "junkers", but I probably wouldn't go to the trouble on a new LP either. I understand your concern, but you haven't established the degree of damage from a single glue treatment. My ears tell me none, while a noticeable benefit.

Dave

Mine too, but I'm no chemist. I DO THINK I made a couple records worse, but I've saved so many with the glue. Again, I'm using them for digital transfer, so.......

View attachment 661352
I do what I like with my records...you do what you like with yours.

Yes, and while I agree, let's all be like little Fonzies here. And how is Fonzie?? Cool. Vince, thank you again.

 

[ripblade]

I would bet that my RCM method would equal the glue method for getting and LP silent.

I would take that bet. Give me one you've given up on and more than likely I can improve on it.