• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

Status
Not open for further replies.
GPJeff said:
I feel the need to recap on this 15th page of the thread - and also because I decided to give the Triton X-100 a try.
For a 50 ml batch:
(1 teaspoon = 4.929 ml> say 5 ml for those using droppers)
5 ml (1 teaspoon) of Triton X-100
45 ml (9 teaspoons) of Distilled Water
Mix solution and let sit approx 10 hrs (overnight) or add 99% IPA to speed dilution

From Vince "You want a final concentration of detergent around 0.1 to 0.2%"
50 ml = 1.69 oz
1 gal = 128 oz
1.69 oz solution / 128 (oz/gal) water = 0.013 =1.3%
therefore
1 oz of solution to 1 gal water = 1.3%;
1 oz of solution to 10 gal water = 0.13%;
Use 5 ml solution per gallon of water

So for my 10 L Ultrasonic Cleaner that uses 2 gals of Distilled Water, I would need 10 ml of solution.
For the Spin Clean tank that uses 24 ozs (.1875 gals) of Distilled Water, I would need 2 ml of solution.
Click to expand...

Thanks for summarizing Jeff. Remember you can go with higher detergent if you need to. I use 0.5% to 1% all the time for rough cleaning with no problems rinsing it away. Lower detergent is better for Ultrasonic (to keep foaming down) and for touch-up cleaning (light rinsing).
If you are substituting Triton for your dish soap, remember that our stock Triton solution (your 50 ml batch) is 10% while Dawn is 10- 30% detergent (I guess it varies according to the MSDS)..
 
EDIT: Corrections in Red (I wrote the org at work while packing up to leave).
For a 50 ml batch of solution:
(1 teaspoon = 4.929 ml> say 5 ml for those using droppers)
5 ml (1 teaspoon) of Triton X-100
45 ml (9 teaspoons) of Distilled Water
Mix solution and let sit approx 10 hrs (overnight) or add 99% IPA to speed dilution

From Vince "You want a final concentration of detergent around 0.1 to 0.2%"
50 ml = 1.69 oz
1 gal = 128 oz
1.69 oz solution / 128 (oz/gal) water = 0.013 =1.3%
therefore
1.69 oz of solution to 1 gal water = 1.3%;
1.69 oz of solution to 10 gal water = 0.13%;
Use 5 ml solution per gallon of water [for .13% concentration (light rinsing & ultrasonics), use 50 ml solution per gallon of water for rough cleaning]

So for my 10 L Ultrasonic Cleaner that uses 2 gals of Distilled Water, I would need 10 ml of solution.
For the Spin Clean tank that uses 24 ozs (.1875 gals) of Distilled Water, I would need 2 ml of solution.
----------------------------
Vince, I will give this a try. I experimented with Dawn but usually use Ilfotol. It took about 45 ml + to start foaming with the Ilfotol.
Thanks
 
Last edited:
Just for reference,
Ilfotol is listed as 1 to 5% surfactant so it is more dilute than the 10% Triton stock you are making. The manufacterer recommends a 1:200 dilution for use as a rinse on film so in that application they are 0.025% final or less.
 

Anyways, all this recent talk about glue has forced my decision to get back to experiments with PVA masks that I previously abandoned. Surely I can come up with a DIY mix that uses simple ingredients, is pH neutral, contains antistats, is not harmful to vinyl. I'll see if I can accelerate drying times as well. If someone want to participate, I'll send a few working recipes that need improving. of course, they all start with the old Reg Williamson recipe (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57939482/TAA_articles.pdf), but with various modifications (trying to get away from 50% alcohol formulas)

.Vince - I followed your link on this post and found it fascinating. A one mix solution to both dirt and static using a dissolved PVOH mask with easily obtainable Elvanol instead of the acidic PVA glue latex. I also saw a thread on the Klipsch site (found with an Elvanol search) where they are working on advancing this forward. Their hangup was finding a good cationic surfactant for the ongoing antistatic property.

I found that the anti stat originally used "Cyastat SN is available supposedly in 1%solution with i-PrOH from a company"ACL" per Its MSD sheet and readily available in small quantities from many distributors.
Have you tried this antistat (cocamidopropylbenzyldimethyl ammonium nitrate) ?

I found some others, an analogous cocamidopropyl betaine ( amphoteric- - zwitterion internal acetate salt) that is readily available on ebay/amazon and a lauric amine oxide that could possibly work in the same fashion, even if not as "cationic".

Do you have experience with any of them in this application? I am awaiting a magnetic stirring bar for an old stirrer hot plate I picked up long ago (35+ years) before I start on any experiments, but it all looks attractive.
 
Last edited:
njmpmcc said:
Anyways, all this recent talk about glue has forced my decision to get back to experiments with PVA masks that I previously abandoned. Surely I can come up with a DIY mix that uses simple ingredients, is pH neutral, contains antistats, is not harmful to vinyl. I'll see if I can accelerate drying times as well. If someone want to participate, I'll send a few working recipes that need improving. of course, they all start with the old Reg Williamson recipe (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57939482/TAA_articles.pdf), but with various modifications (trying to get away from 50% alcohol formulas)

.Vince - I followed your link on this post and found it fascinating. A one mix solution to both dirt and static using a dissolved PVOH mask with easily obtainable Elvanol instead of the acidic PVA glue latex. I also saw a thread on the Klipsch site where they are working on advancing this forward. Their hangup was finding a good cationic surfactant for the ongoing antistatic property.

I found that the anti stat originally used "Cyasure"? is available supposedly in 1%solution with i-PrOH from a company"ACL" per Its MSD sheet and readily available in small quantities from many distributors.
Have you tried this antistat (cocamidopropylbenzyldimethyl ammonium nitrate) ?

I found some others, an analogous cocaminopropyl betaine ( amphoteric- - zwitterion internal acetate salt) that is readily available on ebay/amazon and a lauric amine oxide that could possibly work in the same fashion, even if not as "cationic".

Do you have experience with any of them in this application? I am awaiting a magnetic stirring bar for an old stirrer hot plate I picked up long ago (35+ years) before I start on any experiments, but it all looks attractive.
Click to expand...
Glad to see you researching this interesting solution. I have no hands-on experience with those you mentioned in particular, but they are typical in hair conditioners like some of the others I've used (e.g. Behentrimonium Methosulfate) that you can get from beauty supply stores (even Amazon). Some are easier to work with than others, but they work on the same principle, and they are not hard to find. You don't need much so don't go ordering kgs of the stuff! I plan to resume my mask cleaner experiments after the holidays as I typically do things now in the kitchen and the wife is going crazy preparing meals so it's a no-play zone for me at the moment. Whichever recipe I settle on will be with easily obtainable reagents and I'll be sure to post results.
 
Got my Triton X-100 and 99.9% alcohol on the way, going to mix up a my first batch of this for my RCM as soon as everything arrives. It will replace the more "traditional" homebrew mix of distilled water, alcohol and a drop or two of Dawn that I've been using. Thanks for this thread Vince, got to love advice based on logic and science!
 
Since we've moved on from solutions to mechanical topics, I want to share something that has made a huge difference in my process. 20160101_085903-2.jpg 20160101_085934.jpg
I cut these in half and use one half for each of the two rinses I do. That way there is no chance of transfer of cleaning solution or dirt due to reusing brushes. I do save a couple for damp wiping/pre-cleaning really dirty records to avoid grinding dirt into the grooves with the wash brushes. The cost about $3.00 for 50 which makes 100 pads. Using them whole wastes too much expensive reagent grade water. Sometimes I economize and use the pad I've used for the final rinse as the pad for next first rinse and the first rinse pad becomes the pre-cleaning pad I mentioned. Really improved my results over brushes/pads that I reused. Despite the claim they are lint free, there is a side with "quilting" that works better at avoiding lint than the "raw" side which can shed a lint thread or two. Cheap to try.
 
I've looked at a few of the YouTube videos on this topic. It seems some people feel the need to DROWN their records. Is that REALLY necessary? Also, are their any arguments against using the painter's pads? Are they soft enough to avoid scratching?
 
Got my Triton X-100 on Thursday and mixed up some 10% "base" solution the same day. I cheated and shook it in the small bottle to get it to mix a bit. The solution did foam but the foam receded within a couple of hours. Cleaned several records yesterday which had somehow been contaminated by some nasty black dust. Did not notice any major differences during the cleaning and vacuuming process, but the records seem to be much cleaner and have less noise/static than with the previous homebrew (~25% isopropyl solution with a drop or two of dishwashing liquid).

I followed the guidelines here, 90% distilled water, 10% isopropyl (all I had on hand was 91%, 99.9% is on the way), and 5 or so drops of the diluted Triton base per cup of solution. I will say this is a success as the records look cleaner (a few stubborn fingerprints were washed off) and sound better.

Thanks Vince1!
 
Awesome Mprince, I'm glad you got a healthy cleaning regimen for your records. I particularly like that you were able to reduce the alcohol down from 25% to 10% and still get effective results.

Ereathomas: I use the smaller pad, the one with a handle as it comes with extra pads.

Deacon: Most painter's pads are fine and soft. You have to be very careful not to carelessly hit the record with the plastic edge of the pad holder however. The advantage of large volumes is dilution, which is particularly important when you are not using a RCM. You effectively reduce the concentration of contaminants in the cleaning solution. This is the problem with commercial solutions: they are so expensive that people only want to use a few drops per record. If you are making your own solution, it is inexpensive to flush the record surface with cleaner. Just try to avoid the label. You don't want to use such a small amount of fluid that you are just grinding the released debris back into the grooves.

Wntrmute: Interesting idea to use disposable cotton pads. I like that it prevents cross-contamination but I do worry about lint. It would be great if someone made packs of microfiber pads. You are using Reagent grade water? I find regular supermarket distilled is sufficiently pure enough not to leave deposits.
 
Vince1 said:
Wntrmute: Interesting idea to use disposable cotton pads. I like that it prevents cross-contamination but I do worry about lint. It would be great if someone made packs of microfiber pads. You are using Reagent grade water? I find regular supermarket distilled is sufficiently pure enough not to leave deposits.
Click to expand...

They really do not leave any lint at all in use. I just use the quilted side. Never anything built up on the stylus.
 
A couple updates:
1. I provided some recommendations for those who want to take their cleaning solutions up a notch and add an anti-stat to it. Thread is here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/gruv-glide-replacement-recommendation.696626/
2. Finished my "PVA cleaning mask" experiments. Ended up with one that contains anti-stat, is pH neutral, and has some detergent. It also mostly peels off by itself after drying overnight (pic below). It's a little tricky to make and ends up using a lot of reagent so to make things simple for people, I am now experimenting with commercially available, neutral pH, archival PVA glues like Lineco.
pva1.JPG
 
2. Finished my "PVA cleaning mask" experiments. Ended up with one that contains anti-stat, is pH neutral, and has some detergent. It also mostly peels off by itself after drying overnight (pic below). It's a little tricky to make and ends up using a lot of reagent so to make things simple for people, I am now experimenting with commercially available, neutral pH, archival PVA glues like Lineco.

Vince - re the above, when you say PVA, I assume you mean Poly vinyl alcohol (AKA - PVOH) not Poly Vinyl acetate. If so, which of the Elvanols have you used? I also assume one of the fully hydrolyzed ones.
This reference (with no antistat) -

ushttp://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cleaning-records-with-tergitol.307642/page-3es 70-62,

uses 70-62, while the Klipsch forum version using Cyastate SN antistat (apparently also available diluted thru various distributors) -

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/145942-the-best-way-to-clean-preserve-vinyl/

is not specific. Can you add any details as I am getting ready to make some once I get the most appropriate Elvanol?

Also, per the Cyastat analogs/ copies MSD sheet, it contains up to 5 % NaCl. from its preparation.Do you see this as a problem?
Thanks for you assistance.
 
Yes, polyvinylalcohol. I've used several different Elvanols, from the partially hydrolyzed 50-42 to the fully hydrolyzed 71-30. The latter is commonly available and the one I focused on. I've tried a few cross linking agents in the mix as well.
In terms of anti-stats, you really don't need to specifically seek out CyatateSN, as there are many available quats with similar properties. For our use, were looking for quaternary ammonium compounds with long alkyl chains whether they be mono- or di-esters, whether it is a Nitrate or Chloride salt, or whether the chain is Cetyldimethylbenzyl, Distearyl dimethyl, Steramindopropyldimethyl, or even Hydroxyethyldimethyloxooctadecylaminopropyl ! It doesnt really matter so it's best to stick with easily obtainable quats that are commercially used in antistat preparations, like those recommended in the previously linked thread. Don't worry about the salt, it is diluted out in the working solution.
In the end, a good detergent scrub wash with Triton containing a small amount of anti-stat is so much more convenient, more cost-effective, and just as effective as any mask I experimented with that I have given up with the PVA method. Occasionally, an initial enzymatic step is necessary, but only on extremely dirty records.
 
Vince1 said:
A
........
2. Finished my "PVA cleaning mask" experiments. Ended up with one that contains anti-stat, is pH neutral, and has some detergent. It also mostly peels off by itself after drying overnight (pic below). It's a little tricky to make and ends up using a lot of reagent so to make things simple for people, I am now experimenting with commercially available, neutral pH, archival PVA glues like Lineco.
]
Click to expand...

Update: don't use the Lineco PVA product without adding glycerine. It binds to strongly and is too hard to peel off.
 
Vince - Thanks for your additional input. The reason I want to try the mask/coating route is that I have a few LPs that have only partially responded to the straight surfactant approach with too many realtively loud pops remaining. The favorable reviews from the PVA mask devotees have impressed me enough to try to prepare a less destructive analog using PVOH mask as per your links and the Klipsch -Elvanol searches.
I have prepared a 10% Tergitol NP 10 mix (~60 minutes for complete solution with mag stirrer in a jar) and have it ready to go. I also treated 4 LPS (various degrees of pops) on one side with Scrubbing Bubbles as my old control. Some LPs sound great, but others not so good,. I will use the Tergitol on the other sides of these to see a direct 1 to 1 comparison.

I have also ordered 1 # of Elvanol 71-30 for the masks for the LPs that still sound bad after Scrubbing Bubbles to which I plan to add some glycerol plasticizer, the NP-10 as non-ionic surfactant and some Cocoamidopropyl Betaine (zwitter-ionic and more neutral pH) for anti-stat/detergent combo.
The Betaine will/might not be as strong an anti-stat as a straight tetra-alkyl quat anti stat, but could wet better and is in solution. I really don't know. I am guessing the the Tergitol NP with its straight alkyl chain could wet better than the branched alkyl Triton X-100 and it has a lower CMC (effect?) with the same HLB. It was cheaper, plus I used to work at UCC (30+ years ago). I can always make a batch with a straight quat replacing the Betaine also. The Williamson mix contains about 2% glycerol plasticizer. Does that sound OK to you? Any other comments based on your experience? Thanks again for inspiration.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom