Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

[Lazarus Long]

Hi-ball, there is no need to refrigerate your Triton stock as it will last several weeks at room temperature. If you need to store it longer, add isopropanol to 5% final concentration and/or add a 0.1% of a quaternary ammonium detergent (what I do) as both of these are antimicrobials. Nothing will grow in this mix, just like nothing grows in your dish soap you keep under your sink!
Catcher: not sure where you are, but in the US we can buy Triton or Tergitol online from Amazon or Ebay. If you know someone at a University or hospital, they can get it for you. The Quats can be obtained from beauty supply shops.
Eriathomas: It's not so much the additives that pose a problem in the commercial mixes like Dawn, but the detergent itself. They all are the negatively charged detergent SDS (aka SLS), which can encourage static issues. You need to find out what the "plant based" detergent is in that product as SDS is considered pant derived as well, as are similar extracts that are all ether sulfates of various fats. Many come from Cocamide extract from coconut oil (or palm) and marketers use this to convince people their shampoo or soap is all natural. Some of these natural products are high in salts, carbonates, and oils as well. Maybe you can list the ingredients or give the brand name so we can figure out what the detergent is and whether it is charged?
Lazarus: The Ilford WashAid is Diethylene triamine pentaacetic acid, Sodium Laureate Sulphate (=SDS), and Sodium Sulphite . As you can see, this is a negatively charged mix.

Since the Ilford is negatively charged, would you suggest against using it completely? Or, is there something I could add to the mix? I could just cut my losses, $15, and buy some triton... Maybe someone wants to sell me a small bottle?

 

[GPJeff]

I have been attempting to analyze this post in order to extract a cleaning formula that works and is low cost. I am a carpenter by trade and find it difficult to follow the chemistry jargon. I had ordered the Triton X100 500ml and 99.9% pure iso alcohol. What is the simple breakdown of this formula? I currently use Nitty Gritty Mini Pro with Pure2 at a cost of $80. a gallon, which works OK, but is quite costly. I am also interested in the enzyme mix as I have several albums that have mold spots that I cannot seem to clean up. Not sure if the vinyl has been permanently damaged and I am wasting my time. I appreciate all the research and hard work that everyone has put in to this endeavor. Thanks!

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....re-doing-it-wrong.689430/page-15#post-9300968

In everyday terms- (copied from previous post)

For a 50 ml batch of solution:
(1 teaspoon = 4.929 ml> say 5 ml for those using droppers)
5 ml (1 teaspoon) of Triton X-100
45 ml (9 teaspoons) of Distilled Water
Mix solution and let sit approx 10 hrs (overnight) or add 99% IPA to speed dilution

From Vince "You want a final concentration of detergent around 0.1 to 0.2%" "I use 0.5% to 1% all the time for rough cleaning with no problems rinsing it away."
50 ml = 1.69 oz
1 gal = 128 oz
1.69 oz solution / 128 (oz/gal) water = 0.013 =1.3%
therefore
1.69 oz of solution to 1 gal water = 1.3%;
1.69 oz of solution to 10 gal water = 0.13%;
Use 5 ml solution per gallon of water for light cleaning & ultrasonics [0.13% concentration]
Use 50 ml solution per gallon of water for rough cleaning [1.3% concentration]

So for my 10 L Ultrasonic Cleaner that uses 2 gals of Distilled Water, I would need 10 ml of solution.
For the Spin Clean tank that uses 24 ozs (.1875 gals) of Distilled Water, I would need 2 ml of solution.

 

[GPJeff]

So Vince, if I go in to a Beauty Supply Store and ask the lady "where are your quats?" do you think I'll get kicked out of the store?

Is there a product name and concentration that we should be looking for?

 

[Audiobro]

Thanks GPJeff! I am halfway there, still need info on the enzyme cleaner. I have an especially clean copy of Sgt. Pepper's LHCB, (except for the mold spots and or residue), that everything I have tried will not get those damn spots out.

 

[guest110]

So Vince, if I go in to a Beauty Supply Store and ask the lady "where are your quats?" do you think I'll get kicked out of the store? Is there a product name and concentration that we should be looking for?

LOL Jeff, maybe instead you'll get a hot date! I've mentioned a few in this thread you can ask for by name, but each typically has multiple names so google what you find and look at the uses and structure. Sometimes the beauty people call it pure conditioning emulsifier, Polyquaternium, or fatty esters quaternary ammonium compounds or just cationic conditioning surfactant (some of these you can find on Amazon). The good shops know some basic chemistry and can lead you in the right direction. Many people are allergic to fragrances or are extremely sensitive to certain chemicals so a whole industry is out there for people to make their own shampoos/conditioners and cosmetics from pure or natural reagents. We can take advantage of this to buy pure quats for our cleaning purposes that are the same used in commercial "record conditioners". They micro coat the record much like they coat hair protein, leaving everything static free (and manageable!).

Thanks GPJeff! I am halfway there, still need info on the enzyme cleaner. I have an especially clean copy of Sgt. Pepper's LHCB, (except for the mold spots and or residue), that everything I have tried will not get those damn spots out.

A little dated, but here's my enzyme protocol: http://sites.google.com/site/vincesaudiofiles/
Keep in mind, some fungi excrete acids that will permanently etch/degrade the record surface so you might not be able to restore even if totally clean. That's the nice thing about our cleaning solutions: a molecular layer of detergent and quats remain attached to the surface and since the latter is an antimicrobial, nothing will grow on the record again after cleaning.

 

[Audiobro]

Thanks so much Dr. Vince. Very concise and easy to understand.

 

[Audiobro]

Well the enzyme didn't seem to help. If anyone could take a look at the pic and advise me, I would appreciate it. I come across this type of thing once in a while and have not found any solution. Perhaps it has been etched and it is permanent damage?View media item 5912

 

[dfunghi]

Thanks! Pictures would be cool if possible

I will get some done.

Vince, sorry about the refrigeration comment. I was told that from the folks at Talas in NYC when I bought the Tergitol. Also, my Tergitol is not diluted so maybe that matters too? I would say that anything Vince says re: this thread should supersede anything anyone else says. Vince has been so generous over the years sharing his Vinyl Cleaning tips and chemical expertise.

 

[guest110]

I will get some done.

Vince, sorry about the refrigeration comment. I was told that from the folks at Talas in NYC when I bought the Tergitol. Also, my Tergitol is not diluted so maybe that matters too? I would say that anything Vince says re: this thread should supersede anything anyone else says. Vince has been so generous over the years sharing his Vinyl Cleaning tips and chemical expertise.

Whoa...way too much pressure dfungi! Actually, many people store their Triton X-100 solutions in the fridge (4deg Celsius). There's no problem with it using pure solutions. It's only when alcohols, buffers, or other surfactants and quats are added that you might get turbidity, which is easily reversed by gently warming. Similarly, these detergents cloud up when heated up to high temps (something known as their cloud point...65deg C for Triton) so don't boil them. Though Triton has no antimicrobials properties, my solutions seem to be fine at room temp for weeks. If you store longer, go ahead and refrigerate it. Again, a 10% triton/1% quat stock lasts seemingly forever at room temp in a tight dark container. Sorry if I was confusing in previous post on refrigerating stock solutions as it depends on what's in them and I use many different combos (no problems refrigerating pure 10% stock in dh2o). Also, I've kept 100% Triton in its commercial bottle on the shelf for many months with no issue, but you can refrigerate if you want.

Edit: I should note my glassware, water, and pipettes are autoclaved so YMMV when it comes to solutions without preservatives (quats ot alcohol) becoming contaminated over time. Most people make just enough stock for a couple batch washes anyways so Im not sure this is a problem.

 

[njmpmcc]

njmpmcc: Very interested to hear your Tergitol vs. Scrubbing bubbles comparisons when complete. How are you drying your records? I'd experiment with adding a little antistat to your Triton scrub to see if that helps with the pops.
The glycerol helps keep the PVA mask flexible, facilitating peel-off. The cocoamidopropyl reagent should be fine as an antistat though I have not used it (this reagent is very common in conditioners). It does have the advantage in that you can buy stock solutions of it (some solid antistats are a bitch to dissolve). Tips? I can tell you that if you have problems using a double-boiler to dissolve the Elvanol, use a microwave in short 30 second spurts. It works great. Make sure everything is already mixed in though: adding anything (cold glycerol or water) to hot Elvanol will cause clumps.

Vince -
Still awaiting the receipt of the Betaine surfactant for a Tergitol combo on my test LPs. so I haven;t had a chance to test yet. I have been drying after a 30 ppm CaCo3 (our North Fulton tap water - not very hard & filtered) rinse with a light cotton towel touch to pick up loose water followed by air drying. I am planning to set up a distilled water rinse system per a U-tube video I saw later.
I did re-clean some (3) other 62 year old LPs previously treated with Scrub Bubbles with a newly purchased SpinClean tank using 5 cc of the 10% Tergitol instead of the Spin Clean solvent mix in its tank, followed by a tap rinse and cloth dry. I don't like to just dry without a rinse. It doesn't feel right, although I wonder about possibly precipitating some crud on the LP's surface again as the water hits it. Without a good analytical method to check or a good microscope one really can't tell. The Spin Clean of course does both sides at once so I can't use it on my regular test subjects. It did appear to help the sound somewhat on the old 220 gm LPs, but some pops remained. I can redo with the addition of the Betaine anti stat when it arrives, although I wonder whether the prior use of SB's multi quats will have left a semi permanent mono layer on these disks which still had various amounts of pops des[pite the cationic nature of the SB's quats. Any idea on a ratio of Betaine anti stat to Tergitol NP-15 (at ~0.25%)?
I have my Elvanol and it looks like I can easily add ~10% glycerine as a plasticizer from what I have seen to increase strength of the film. I am wondering whether I should buy a ~500 cc Erlenmeyer flask to mix it in rather than the Mason jars I have been using since I will be using a hot plate with mag stirrer instead of a stove or microwave. Any suggestions? I want to finish the straight Tergitol & quat anti stat wash tests first before I try the mask approach. Also, adding a small amount of Butyl Cellosolve a coupling solvent instead of IsoprOH (per Walt - our cartridge Guru's - suggestion) looks very interesting to me. Again thanks for you suggestions and inspiration.

 

[guest110]

Vince -
Still awaiting the receipt of the Betaine surfactant for a Tergitol combo on my test LPs. so I haven;t had a chance to test yet. I have been drying after a 30 ppm CaCo3 (our North Fulton tap water - not very hard & filtered) rinse with a light cotton towel touch to pick up loose water followed by air drying. I am planning to set up a distilled water rinse system per a U-tube video I saw later.
I did re-clean some (3) other 62 year old LPs previously treated with Scrub Bubbles with a newly purchased SpinClean tank using 5 cc of the 10% Tergitol instead of the Spin Clean solvent mix in its tank, followed by a tap rinse and cloth dry. I don't like to just dry without a rinse. It doesn't feel right, although I wonder about possibly precipitating some crud on the LP's surface again as the water hits it. Without a good analytical method to check or a good microscope one really can't tell. The Spin Clean of course does both sides at once so I can't use it on my regular test subjects. It did appear to help the sound somewhat on the old 220 gm LPs, but some pops remained. I can redo with the addition of the Betaine anti stat when it arrives, although I wonder whether the prior use of SB's multi quats will have left a semi permanent mono layer on these disks which still had various amounts of pops des[pite the cationic nature of the SB's quats. Any idea on a ratio of Betaine anti stat to Tergitol NP-15 (at ~0.25%)?
I have my Elvanol and it looks like I can easily add ~10% glycerine as a plasticizer from what I have seen to increase strength of the film. I am wondering whether I should buy a ~500 cc Erlenmeyer flask to mix it in rather than the Mason jars I have been using since I will be using a hot plate with mag stirrer instead of a stove or microwave. Any suggestions? I want to finish the straight Tergitol & quat anti stat wash tests first before I try the mask approach. Also, adding a small amount of Butyl Cellosolve a coupling solvent instead of IsoprOH (per Walt - our cartridge Guru's - suggestion) looks very interesting to me. Again thanks for you suggestions and inspiration.

I would use 0.1% quat to 0.25% Tergitol (this detergent can be raised to 0.5% if needed).
I like Erlenmeyers as the shape keeps fluids in the bottom rather than the sides.
The Cellosolve product is merely 2-Butoxyethanol, which is fine, but rather an expensive alternative to just ethanol or isopropanol.
Interested to hear your results...keep it coming!

 

[elvi]

Questions around alcohols.

I have been using ethanol with methanol to denature it.
Any issues with that vs ISO?

Also experimenting with photo flow and triton.




( On a side note.. on my 3rd generation of self designed LP cleaner.. This current version includes a ultrasonic engine I had I specced for me during my last trip over the great wall..)

 

[wualta]

Just a quick side note: 2-butoxyethanol is, as has been stated before, ubiquitous. It's the main ingredient in dollar-store concentrated allpurpose cleaner. Very easy to find, very cheap. X-100 goes right into it, no trouble, and one dilutes from there. You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[Deacon Jubal]

I have just used a product that contains Triton X-100 called Into The Groove. Used a paint pad, rinsed with distilled water, and dried thoroughly with new microfiber hand towels. This stuff really does a great job on some old albums that obviously had a bit of mold in them. One record had a spot that looked almost like a small gouge or something that looked like wax. I tried scraping it lightly with my fingernail to no avail. The cleaner really did a great job at removing it.
Right now I'm listening to a Pat Terry custom album that was obviously recorded on a cheap 4-track reel-to-reel. Much greater detail on acoustic guitars is heard, but vocal sibilance is also cringe-worthy. In other words, the limitations of the recording really stand out.
It also made a G+ The Carpenters The Singles 1969-73 sound more like a VG+ to M-.
This stuff is pretty expensive, about 19.00 for a 8 oz. spray bottle. I will probably only use it on used albums that truly need it.

 

[Dukerbud88]

Do what I did. Buy a MK III from Squeaky clean and a Wet/Dry Vacuum from Home Depot. Works the exact same way as a VPI, Okki and Nitty Gritty. Plus, it's only a quarter of the cost. Win win.

 

[Dukerbud88]

Just for reference,
Ilfotol is listed as 1 to 5% surfactant so it is more dilute than the 10% Triton stock you are making. The manufacterer recommends a 1:200 dilution for use as a rinse on film so in that application they are 0.025% final or less.

Hi Vince!!
Amazing thread and well worth the read. This thread was linked to me as I started a thread called "Record Cleaning" Solutions" on Canuck Audiomart. As it turns out the Tergitol and the Triton are not avail here and with our dollar being so low against yours and import charges it's so not worth it.
However, one common recipe on the canuck website is 99% IA, distilled water and the Ilford Ilfotol. Can you post/reply a (per ml) how to divide these three up in say a 300 or 500ml spray bottle??
Thanks ever so much.

 

[guest110]

Hi Vince!!
Amazing thread and well worth the read. This thread was linked to me as I started a thread called "Record Cleaning" Solutions" on Canuck Audiomart. As it turns out the Tergitol and the Triton are not avail here and with our dollar being so low against yours and import charges it's so not worth it.
However, one common recipe on the canuck website is 99% IA, distilled water and the Ilford Ilfotol. Can you post/reply a (per ml) how to divide these three up in say a 300 or 500ml spray bottle??
Thanks ever so much.

Hi Dukerbud. Man, that sucks that you can't find the recommended detergent. Looking at the Ilfotol MSDS, they list the surfactant as
between 1% and 5% Fatty Alcohol Polyglycol Ether which is somewhat vague but does indicate it is one of the synthetic nonionics. My problem with the product is that it also contains Methylisothiazolinone as a preservative, which is nasty stuff and not needed. That said, you could use it assuming it is a 1% stock (the lowest concentration of the given range) and therefore dilute it 10- to 20- fold in your working solution. That could turn out to be fairly expensive in the long run. If it were me in the frozen North, I'd dig a little deeper and try to find Triton X-100 from a commercial supplier or even take a grad student out for a beer to get a small bottle. In terms of the alcohol, you would dilute the 99% stock 20 fold to get just below 5%. Hence, in 500 ml stay bottle you could add 50 ml Ilfitol, 25 ml IA and 400 ml water to see how it works.

 

[totem]

Was there not a member here shipping Triton X-100 in smaller bottles for something like $10?
Or perhaps a diluted concentration there of.

 

[hi*ball]

Was there not a member here shipping Triton X-100 in smaller bottles for something like $10?
Or perhaps a diluted concentration there of.

In Barter Town (in the "Media" section)

 

[ripblade]

Dukerbud, there're no import charges for the Terg, but as you say...it is expensive up here. I got mine from Talas Online long before things went ballistic. As expensive as it is, if you can arrange a group buy it comes out much cheaper than you'd think as a 500ml bottle of each (S3 and S9) is enough to do about a million records...