Record wear article

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Just read this article:

A Year-Long Study Catches a Popular Vinyl Stylus Carving Into Records Far Earlier Than the Brand Promised

The damage builds into the grooves permanently and no replacement stylus can undo it later.

www.headphonesty.com

Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?

Dave

 

[Thomas_AA]

Just read this article:

A Year-Long Study Catches a Popular Vinyl Stylus Carving Into Records Far Earlier Than the Brand Promised

The damage builds into the grooves permanently and no replacement stylus can undo it later.

www.headphonesty.com

Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?

Dave

Better read the originals at VE than AI-generated articles. Summary at SHF.

SWS3: ML: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=138724
SWS4a: Conical with Quiet Records: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=139301
SWS4b: Conical with Noisy Records: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=139488

SWSA, Stylus Wear Study A

I'm starting a new study to determine how much damage is done to a record groove by repeated plays. This data is needed so we can set a target number...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[loudnoises]

Just read this article:

A Year-Long Study Catches a Popular Vinyl Stylus Carving Into Records Far Earlier Than the Brand Promised

The damage builds into the grooves permanently and no replacement stylus can undo it later.

www.headphonesty.com

Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?

Dave

Assuming the ai version is pretty accurate, there's not a whole lot of new here. While it confirms many bits of conventional knowledge, I don't think it exposes much new. Going to read the actual study now...

 

[Sammcamos]

Better read the originals at VE than AI-generated articles. Summary at SHF.

SWS3: ML: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=138724
SWS4a: Conical with Quiet Records: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=139301
SWS4b: Conical with Noisy Records: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=139488

SWSA, Stylus Wear Study A

I'm starting a new study to determine how much damage is done to a record groove by repeated plays. This data is needed so we can set a target number...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

I wonder what the ethics of that AI article are, because if I saw something like this happen to my research without my knowledge, I would be rightfully pissed off.

 

[Mr Boochie]

Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?

Dave

I use an ultrasonic cleaner (after hand-washing really dirty used LPs). That is the best way to keep sticky gumbahs and dust from accumulating on your needle. Your needle (regular or fine) will thank you for it.

How well you initially aligned the cartridge and tonearm prolly plays a big role in how long your stylus will last. It's critical for micro-line tips.

 

[cafe latte]

Just read this article:

A Year-Long Study Catches a Popular Vinyl Stylus Carving Into Records Far Earlier Than the Brand Promised

The damage builds into the grooves permanently and no replacement stylus can undo it later.

www.headphonesty.com

Anyone else experiencing problems like this with fine line stylus shapes?

Dave

The original is over at VE.
It seems the issue was faulty suspensions on AT95ml not thr stylus shape. Thr suspension is loose on the test stylus and wiggles and is able to rotate, nothing to do with the profile. That thread at headphonesty should be deleted.
Chris

 

[Thomas_AA]

The original is over at VE.
It seems the issue was faulty suspensions on AT95ml not thr stylus shape. Thr suspension is loose on the test stylus and wiggles and is able to rotate, nothing to do with the profile. That thread at headphonesty should be deleted.
Chris

As I understand, it is not just one example though. Unless AT has a lot of faulty suspensions around.

 

[Mr Boochie]

The original is over at VE.
It seems the issue was faulty suspensions on AT95ml not thr stylus shape. Thr suspension is loose on the test stylus and wiggles and is able to rotate, nothing to do with the profile. That thread at headphonesty should be deleted.
Chris

Yeah. It's good to exercise a bit of skepticism toward many of the current "shouting" Net articles. Especially on social media.

Vetting, how the data is checked and reproduced, can account for a very small percentage in many of them.

 

[cafe latte]

As I understand, it is not just one example though. Unless AT has a lot of faulty suspensions around.

It was, but I have one too with a loose suspension.
Ray tried a sas with no issues. I have a Tom Waits which it test retips with that has had hundreds of plays and checking the grooves under my microscope it is fine and it sounds fantastic.
Ml or micro ridge need good alignment when worn in, they cant be loose or groove damage will happen.
I pushed the coils on Koetsu on my desk round to try to rotate them, when I let go they spring back. Gently touching one on the magnets on a AT95ml it rotates the stylus and ut does not spring back it stays rotated, this cant happen.
AT 95ml having suspension issues has been mentioned online in several places, Rays study proved the problem.
There are no issues with ml just some at least of AT95ml suspensions.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

I will add with any studies like this interesting as they are you need to not read to much into the results as there are too many variables in the tests.
The conical lasted far longer than other tests in the past ( most early tests were done with conical), why could this be?
Possibly and this is just a theory the same loose suspension allows a conical wear patch to keep changing position so unlike with ml which cant have changing positions the conical moving around spreads the wear. This would mess with the results.
Suspension is a big factor in wear, the correct compliance too and it being a good match for the arm will change how a stylus wears. Take a Koetsu and a Lyra both with Ogura stylus and test them both for wear and thry wont last thr same time and the differences in suspension will change how the stylus wears.
More than this if I test a Lyra on my arm and someone else does the same test on a different arm it is very likely the results would be different. What music is being played, how modulated, how new are the records used in the test, do they have groove damage already ( mistracking damages stylus). Some of us have all new records with high quality mint pressings, some have old cheap pressings with recycled vinyl which has paper in it which is not only more noisy but wears more.
Arm bearings, a Technics arm has 6mg bearing friction but a Jelco has 25mg. Some arms are oil damped, some not. Is there bearing play, are thr bearings tight, thr list goes on and on..
There are so many factors that can affect stylus wear. Shure abandoned its own tests years ago, they said it was virtually impossible to get consistent results replication after replication.
I have been following Rays progress and even offered to help as it is interesting but I am not reading too much into the results. I see thousands of worn stylus, hundreds with known hours and from this I have come to my own conclusions on stylus life and a micro ridge with a good suspension like on most decent MCs is good for 800 to 1000 hours. I have never seen a still good one over 1000. Conical is good for 500 hours and an elliptical about 400 hours. Shibata can last 800 hours. Milage will vary but at 2g this is a good guide.
Chris

 

[Thomas_AA]

I will add with any studies like this interesting as they are you need to not read to much into the results as there are too many variables in the tests.
The conical lasted far longer than other tests in the past ( most early tests were done with conical), why could this be?
Possibly and this is just a theory the same loose suspension allows a conical wear patch to keep changing position so unlike with ml which cant have changing positions the conical moving around spreads the wear. This would mess with the results.
Suspension is a big factor in wear, the correct compliance too and it being a good match for the arm will change how a stylus wears. Take a Koetsu and a Lyra both with Ogura stylus and test them both for wear and thry wont last thr same time and the differences in suspension will change how the stylus wears.
More than this if I test a Lyra on my arm and someone else does the same test on a different arm it is very likely the results would be different. What music is being played, how modulated, how new are the records used in the test, do they have groove damage already ( mistracking damages stylus). Some of us have all new records with high quality mint pressings, some have old cheap pressings with recycled vinyl which has paper in it which is not only more noisy but wears more.
Arm bearings, a Technics arm has 6mg bearing friction but a Jelco has 25mg. Some arms are oil damped, some not. Is there bearing play, are thr bearings tight, thr list goes on and on..
There are so many factors that can affect stylus wear. Shure abandoned its own tests years ago, they said it was virtually impossible to get consistent results replication after replication.
I have been following Rays progress and even offered to help as it is interesting but I am not reading too much into the results. I see thousands of worn stylus, hundreds with known hours and from this I have come to my own conclusions on stylus life and a micro ridge with a good suspension like on most decent MCs is good for 800 to 1000 hours. I have never seen a still good one over 1000. Conical is good for 500 hours and an elliptical about 400 hours. Shibata can last 800 hours. Milage will vary but at 2g this is a good guide.
Chris

So you are saying that the cheap ATs, most of them, have faulty suspensions? I mean if that explains wear and damage patterns of several AT ML as well as their conicals?

The facts from the past is that conicals do have lowest friction due to their nature. They can't trace all the sharpest modulations as the line contacts can. So better tracing increases the stick-slip friction, and this increases wear. Looking at the LF pattern of Rays Hitachi TT, two things are clear. The left channel have higher friction and LF component. He measured the antiskate force to be around 10% which is similar to the skate force a conical riding a blank groove. A modulated groove increases this to 15%. An elliptical is around 20%. So antiskate force was too low with this player, especially with line contacts. Second finding was that the conical had less LF/friction than the ML or Shibata, which is in line with the above. So one factor that could explain right groove damage in highly modulated grooves is too low antiskate force, at least with this turntable and arm. Also, the lower friction of the conical would explain its longer life.

A second issue is torsional forces on stylus tip, which has not been very much studied. This occurs on all stylii with a "point contact" since there is a moment force, and a suspension that allows the cantilever to twist. For point contacts this will basically happen with both new and slightly worn stylii. For ML/MR contacts, this will be an issue when new and stabilise as a longer patch is worn in. This twisting action is a possible cause of damage, especially using a new ML/MR. This also means that ML/MR cartridges are bit more critical with respect to suspension, tie wire/no tie wire and assembly. I know the Nagaoka MP-700 introduced both another type of suspension and tie wire when they went ML/MR stylus type. Also the Ortofon X50 MC with its (first ever) MR/ML is said to reworked the suspension, vs their X10-X40 line. Perhaps there is a reason to it?

If true the cheapest ATVM95 ML may be damaging records, no matter what, especially at 2.0 gf and if antiskate is off.

 

[Chet63]

what did you guys think of so called "flash melting" effect? i stumbled to this video couple of days ago and i think it makes things more complicated...from this side ML makes things worse, and from the other conicals are making barbeque on our records?

 

[Thomas_AA]

what did you guys think of so called "flash melting" effect? i stumbled to this video couple of days ago and i think it makes things more complicated...from this side ML makes things worse, and from the other conicals are making barbeque on our records?

BS. Where is his data of temperature? And the smoke and smell of burned vinyl? Or the temperature of the cantilever and melted suspensions?

 

[cafe latte]

So you are saying that the cheap ATs, most of them, have faulty suspensions? I mean if that explains wear and damage patterns of several AT ML as well as their conicals?

The facts from the past is that conicals do have lowest friction due to their nature. They can't trace all the sharpest modulations as the line contacts can. So better tracing increases the stick-slip friction, and this increases wear. Looking at the LF pattern of Rays Hitachi TT, two things are clear. The left channel have higher friction and LF component. He measured the antiskate force to be around 10% which is similar to the skate force a conical riding a blank groove. A modulated groove increases this to 15%. An elliptical is around 20%. So antiskate force was too low with this player, especially with line contacts. Second finding was that the conical had less LF/friction than the ML or Shibata, which is in line with the above. So one factor that could explain right groove damage in highly modulated grooves is too low antiskate force, at least with this turntable and arm. Also, the lower friction of the conical would explain its longer life.

A second issue is torsional forces on stylus tip, which has not been very much studied. This occurs on all stylii with a "point contact" since there is a moment force, and a suspension that allows the cantilever to twist. For point contacts this will basically happen with both new and slightly worn stylii. For ML/MR contacts, this will be an issue when new and stabilise as a longer patch is worn in. This twisting action is a possible cause of damage, especially using a new ML/MR. This also means that ML/MR cartridges are bit more critical with respect to suspension, tie wire/no tie wire and assembly. I know the Nagaoka MP-700 introduced both another type of suspension and tie wire when they went ML/MR stylus type. Also the Ortofon X50 MC with its (first ever) MR/ML is said to reworked the suspension, vs their X10-X40 line. Perhaps there is a reason to it?

If true the cheapest ATVM95 ML may be damaging records, no matter what, especially at 2.0 gf and if antiskate is off.

Conicals dont have lower friction.

 

[Chet63]

Conicals dont have lower friction.

so, flash melting is real?

 

[Thomas_AA]

Conicals dont have lower friction.

Based on plain grooves or modulated?

 

[loudnoises]

I see thousands of worn stylus, hundreds with known hours and from this I have come to my own conclusions on stylus life and a micro ridge with a good suspension like on most decent MCs is good for 800 to 1000 hours. I have never seen a still good one over 1000. Conical is good for 500 hours and an elliptical about 400 hours. Shibata can last 800 hours. Milage will vary but at 2g this is a good guide.
Chris

And the results of real world use, which turns an uncontrollable variable into a really nice curve.

Actual experience like yours has to be the best yardstick we can hope for. And it isn't far off what I've come to expect based on reading too many of those studies, and my own understanding of the forces involved. So I think there is a forest to see thru the trees in the efforts of the testers, but i don't see anything that make me question your eyes.

And this all is why I like light tracking conicals for daily use Easy to align and inexpensive to replace when i suspect wear. If my goal is to preserve my records, this is the way that seems right.

 

[cafe latte]

And the results of real world use, which turns an uncontrollable variable into a really nice curve.

Actual experience like yours has to be the best yardstick we can hope for. And it isn't far off what I've come to expect based on reading too many of those studies, and my own understanding of the forces involved. So I think there is a forest to see thru the trees in the efforts of the testers, but i don't see anything that make me question your eyes.

And this all is why I like light tracking conicals for daily use Easy to align and inexpensive to replace when i suspect wear. If my goal is to preserve my records, this is the way that seems right.

Google is you friend here if you want tocheck me.
A tiny tiny area with lets say 1kg dragged along is the same friction a much larger area with the same mass this is fact.
A conical at 2g has the same friction as a stylus with a greater area at 2g but the pressure on any given area is less meaning less wear.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

so, flash melting is real?

No

 

[cafe latte]

what did you guys think of so called "flash melting" effect? i stumbled to this video couple of days ago and i think it makes things more complicated...from this side ML makes things worse, and from the other conicals are making barbeque on our records?

This was busted as a thing about 2 decades ago.