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Regarding Carver Amps.

outshined said:
I really believe that all this soul-searching, wondering, questioning, agonizing about amplifiers is basically unproductive and would be much more rewarding if applied to loudspeakers instead. For various reasons that I have discussed in the past, people are more willing to change amplifiers than loudspeakers. That’s most unfortunate because a new and better loudspeaker will change your audio life but a new amplifier will not.
Peter Aczel.
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The only people i see "agonizing & soul searching" over the amplifier debate are the people who live by the DBT/ABX method of audio,i'll never understand anybodies willingness or wanting to drive any subject so hard as most DBT proponents will & usually do.
 
outshined said:
So, you're saying, just for arguments sake, that you can hear a diff in an amp with .05THD and one with .1THD, across the audio band?

Measurement differences in THD, IM, crosstalk, damping factor, etc... are so small that they will go completely unoticed.
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Nope,not what im saying at all,forget about written specs like damping factor,THD,Crosstalk & IMD for a moment,think about what truly commands any amplifier to perform either good or bad & thats the loudspeaker its connected to,dummy loads & computer models used for factory specs are useless in this comparison.

What should be measured is the speaker response from 2 like amplifiers using a fixed position microphone, an accoustic analizer capable of showing the whole audio spectrum & a db meter,also a preamp with 2 main inputs & the ability to switch on the fly between the 2 amps ,any coloration if any added by the preamp will be added to both amps equaly.

With db levels matched & the speaker response being mic'ed & monitored differences in speaker response can be seen on the monitor display,the speaker response is the end result of the amplifier its connected to.
 
panhead said:
The only people i see "agonizing & soul searching" over the amplifier debate are the people who live by the DBT/ABX method of audio,i'll never understand anybodies willingness or wanting to drive any subject so hard as most DBT proponents will & usually do.
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Panhead,
I don't agonize or soul search over amplifiers:thmbsp:

I have a rebuilt Ampzilla (rebuilt by Jim Bongiorno), a SAE 2600 (also rebuilt, though not as extensively), 5 Proton AA series amps, a Carver ZR1600, and a Marantz 140.
My Main (2 ch.) speakers are Legacy Studios and a Legacy Dual 10 sub.

I consider this stuff to be OK, and I don't hear any noisy things through my speaks.

I don't try to hear any differences in any of these amps, and I don't hear any. I know that the differences, if they exist at all, are way beyond anybodys ability to hear.

I listen to music, and watch movies, and am very happy doing so with the stuff I have.

I can't justify buying what I would like to have, just for the sake of having or wanting say, some Mac stuff. Way too expensive. Do I want it? Yes:banana:
Do I need it? No:no:

I am obviously outnumbered here on this subject. I will thus leave it alone.

We can go on and live with our respective opinions :thmbsp:
 
outshined said:
Panhead,
I don't agonize or soul search over amplifiers:thmbsp:

I am obviously outnumbered here on this subject. I will thus leave it alone.

We can go on and live with our respective opinions :thmbsp:
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No no no,i was not refering to you & if you took it as such i apologize ,i was refering to the people who have written massive collections of white papers on the subject,as far as im concerned your opinion is as valid as any other,its the people who are not part of our hobby who write white papers that i speak of.

Ive had this debate with several audio engineers many times & while they agree that differences can be seen & measured thats as far as they will go,the discussion always ends the same way.

But can you hear a difference.:sigh:

I thought we were having a good discussion not a fight:thmbsp:
 
panhead said:
Nope,not what im saying at all,forget about written specs like damping factor,THD,Crosstalk & IMD for a moment,think about what truly commands any amplifier to perform either good or bad & thats the loudspeaker its connected to,dummy loads & computer models used for factory specs are useless in this comparison.

What should be measured is the speaker response from 2 like amplifiers using a fixed position microphone, an accoustic analizer capable of showing the whole audio spectrum & a db meter,also a preamp with 2 main inputs & the ability to switch on the fly between the 2 amps ,any coloration if any added by the preamp will be added to both amps equaly.

With db levels matched & the speaker response being mic'ed & monitored differences in speaker response can be seen on the monitor display,the speaker response is the end result of the amplifier its connected to.
Click to expand...

OK, One last thing.
I think your methodology is flawed, just a little, by using loudspeakers as the "equalizer"

Which speaker? Which room? Flat from 20Hz to 20KHz?

Take a look at this alternative method to do what you suggest... Lemme know what you think.

http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=35&blogId=1
 
"I thought we were having a good discussion not a fight"

So did I !! Good discussion. I'm not trying to be a a-hole here. I do like to defend my positions, though!

Thanks for the message.
 
outshined said:
I don't try to hear any differences in any of these amps, and I don't hear any. I know that the differences, if they exist at all, are way beyond anybodys ability to hear.
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No, all this means is that YOU can't hear a difference between them. From that you extrapolate what all the rest of us can hear also. How on earth would you know what anyone else can hear??? Wouldn't that be kinda like Stevie Wonder telling the world he can't see, so that means no one else can see either? Prove it to him what we can see.
 
outshined said:
So now we have "designer" components that we choose to make the source sound the way we want it to?

I'll take flat FR any day. If you look at the specs of most any amp or preamp worthy enough of your consideration, you will find that this is indeed the case.

Total Harmonic Distortion, IM, channel seperation, etc... will also be exemplary.
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Well, of course they are designer components. Every designer sets out a goal for how they want their equipment to sound and designs accordingly. There is no piece in the audio world that does not work this way.

You can have your flat response. I will take a musical sound. The best sounding, most enjoyable systems I have heard recently I am sure will not measure well. One was a SET system putting out about 3.5 watts. I don't even want to think what they would measure at. The first gen of SS equipment I am sure measured better than the tube equipment it replaced, yet I don't think anyone would pick a Pat 4 over a PAS 3.
Measurements only tell a part of the tale. What is most important is what you hear. Or, don't hear, I guess.
 
outshined said:
Bigerik said:
outshined said:
Actually, the ABX test methodology does not rely on sonic memory, which is extremely short. Rather, the ABX Comparator switches between amps very fast. Then, you tally your choice between A and B, against X.



If you the full story regarding the ABX Comparator, then you know that it does not alter the sound.

Please see the link I posted about a new way to do DBT.
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The problem is that the ABX devices are designed by guys who can't hear the difference anyway. So how the heck would they know if it made a difference?
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outshined said:
I don't like your tone, "Big" Eric.
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What "Tone" are you referring to? You are the one who is telling everyone what they can and cannot hear. You were the one who said you could not hear the difference between your amps. I am just reiterating the facts you have presented.
 
Bigerik said:
What "Tone" are you referring to? You are the one who is telling everyone what they can and cannot hear. You were the one who said you could not hear the difference between your amps. I am just reiterating the facts you have presented.
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Eric,
We have had a civilized discussion here today until you chimed in (which you have every right to do)

I have presented my case. I have given a link to a new method of testing the "sound" of amps.

I have not told anyone what they can or cannot hear. I referenced myself when I said that "I" don't hear a difference.

If anyone in the discussion feels that I've "told" them what they hear, please accept my apology.
 
Guys... this discussion has been drifting back and forth across the line since yesterday.

Lets all take a deep breath and try to keep it civil and avoid personal jabs.

Thanks

Henry
AK Moderator
 
hpsenicka said:
Guys... this discussion has been drifting back and forth across the line since yesterday.

Lets all take a deep breath and try to keep it civil and avoid personal jabs.

Thanks

Henry
AK Moderator
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Good idea, Henry :thmbsp:

I'll go first :yes:

In fact, I think I'll just go. The topic will not, and cannot, be resolved or even laid on common ground.

On to other stuff :music:
 
Hobbesk, back to your original point.
What I would recommend is trying to find someone in your area, an AK'er maybe, who has one. See if you can borrow it to try it out at home. Any decent audio shop will let you try the equipment out in your own system.
Give it a listen and let us know what you hear.
 
My Carver might do the trick -

A760x SPECIFICATIONS:

Power Output: FTC 20hz-20khz -

-8ohm 380 watts per channel
-4ohm 600 watts per channel
-2ohm 1150 watts per channel

(The amp is rated to drive a 2 ohm load). :thmbsp:
 
Kahuna said:
My Carver might do the trick -

A760x SPECIFICATIONS:

Power Output: FTC 20hz-20khz -

-8ohm 380 watts per channel
-4ohm 600 watts per channel
-2ohm 1150 watts per channel

(The amp is rated to drive a 2 ohm load). :thmbsp:
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Very impressive.
And pretty too!
 
Well - I had Kappa 9.2 Series II's and horizontally biamped them with Carver TFM45's. My son, a senior in high school, had too many parties in our basement/home theater and the kids pumped out major db's from 9PM to shutdown time at midnight. I ran the speakers in the extended mode all the time. While making the Carvers warm they never shut down. They hung with every type of music they threw at them. But, do not stack them one on top of the other - they will shut down. I don't have a golden ear but I enjoyed the sound the Carver's and the 9.2's put out. Just not as much as my RSIIb's put out though. (Hope to soon be a member of the 4.5 club!) Enjoy....
 
outshined said:
OK, One last thing.
I think your methodology is flawed, just a little, by using loudspeakers as the "equalizer"

Which speaker? Which room? Flat from 20Hz to 20KHz?

Take a look at this alternative method to do what you suggest... Lemme know what you think.

http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=35&blogId=1
Click to expand...

Which loudspeaker is irrelevant,so is room conditions,source material or freq responsethe demand the loudspeaker puts on the amp will equally effect both amplifiers & so will any other conditions.

See now ive heard that my methodology is flawed before,you are not the 1st to tell me that but i still cant see how its flawed,is not the loudspeaker impendance,power needs,impendance swings & dips ect what controls how any amplifier will perform.
 
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