Replacement Stylus for Stanton 881S Cartridge
- Thread starter BroonsBane
- Start date
malden
Lunatic Member
what you don't seem to get from my posts is that I am not impressed by the minutia that is mulled over in this forum. Most of it is ingested and regurgitated to a point that any opinion to the contrary is looked upon as ignorance.
LISTENING is the ultimate test, not specs or graphs.
We are talking about a stylus for a cartridge which is only one aspect of a complex system that reproduces sound. For someone to claim that a particular stylus sounds better than another without context is meaningless.
Malden, you are hmm... strange. Of course we are talking about replacement stylus. Shibata is not solution to replace Stereohedron. Jico replacement is crap. Retip with micro ridge is only solution to save performance.
malden
Lunatic Member
making it personal will not strengthen your argument, which by the way is not very clear
the OP asked for a replacement so I offered a "solution", it may not be a solution for you so don't sweat it
Okay, can you back that up?
Another argument against the JICO is that it does not sound the same as the original....will the original stylus replaced with a micro-ridge tip sound exactly like the tip it replaced?
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Read posts above. There are answers.
881S with with a micro ridge will sound better, than with original Stereohedron stylus, especially on inner tracks.
Because of smaller radius.
Yes, suspension should be appropriate too, but it is not a problem. Retipping of old cartridges commonly include replacing of cantilever (with boron commonly), suspension and stylus. NOS Stereohedron probably need suspension to be replaced.
Retipping cost only a bit more than Jico Shibata.
Does it worth to retip 881S? I would buy damaged MC (Denon 103 for example) and retip instead of 881S retipping.
malden
Lunatic Member
I have read this so many times in the forums.
I'll share with you my experience if you care to read and consider it.
I have many, MANY cartridges and styli and swap them in and out of my collection of turntables regularly. The Shure M3D would be at the low end thru the Shure V15 V-MR with original stylus (I have several) and all major Shure models in between manufactured from the early 1960's until Shure stopped making cartridges a few years ago. Most of my cartridges have original and JICO replacements. All of my turntables are vintage, restored and tuned.
I'll use an extreme example. Although there are obvious differences in sound between the M3D (.7 mil conical) and V15 V-MR (micro-ridge), I have never heard inner-groove distortion or any degradation of sound emanating, particularly from the inner-grooves with either of them or any in my collection. I've read about it, but I have never experienced it.
I'm not saying inner-grooves do not impart difficulties on stylus tracking, but I think there must be more to it than stylus shape, and for that reason, I do not consider tip shape as a deciding factor in choosing a stylus.
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academia50
Active Member
Malden, I agree with you, I have never heard the famous IGD, and although measurements can prove it, it is not audible in a quality and well-configured TT-cartridge set. But the issue does not end there! In a mediocre cartridge and a basic system to play vinyl, you will not hear IGD either, even if it were present (and yes, it is). Less than less. And the FR is not everything although a cartridge like the 881S was excellent in that aspect, (attached courtesy of Caffe Latte who talked about this, but did not see my previous post with my graphics) - copyrights must be respected, right? -
There are other factors involved. A DL 103 has a richness in harmonics that makes it far superior to an 881S, Shure V-15 - take your pick) and I would believe that it is due to the very nature of the construction. The windings of a moving coil detect minimal variations in voltage (V) in a way that a moving magnet does not, which is much "rougher", so to speak. There is a lot of literature and videos on the subject.
That said, here is a graph I made of the FR of the 881 S, it really was a great cartridge, it should be compared with other brands, but Shure, (P.S) did not usually provide the same data with their cartridges.
If someone finds it, and uploads it here, it will be appreciated, for comparison.
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did you happen to listen to the clips jp posted of a lyra kleos (i think thats what it was) vs an ortofon 2m blue?
a richness in harmonics sounds like maybe you enjoy the added distortion the conical stylus on a 103 imparts?
malden
Lunatic Member
digital recordings posted online and then played back through my phone?
how you listen to them is up to you.
malden
Lunatic Member
I prefer needle in the groove, phono preamp, class AB amplifier, speakers, low-slung chair, bottle of beer
academia50
Active Member
Yes, I really enjoy that rich tone that I don't find in MM cartridges, even if they are harmonic with some distortion, the important thing is that they are there. Many needles, especially MM, do not give "the tone" of the instruments. Of course, I think you understand that I am not referring to electronic music, only to musical instruments without amplification or weird effects. That dull, gray tone of a Shure V-15 Typo III is like putting a blanket over your speakers. You recognize the instruments, but in the same way that you also recognize them in a cheap transistor radio. And you must not forget that the last link in the chain, the speakers, have a much greater distortion than any cartridge can generate. The big fish eats the little one. The hypothetical distortion of a DL103 (nothing verifiable, show me articles, graphs, whatever) is masked.
malden
Lunatic Member
what speakers are you using?
academia50
Active Member
In my main system I use Troels Gravesen DTQWTII and a pair of corner subwoofers with 18" Eminence speakers. All DIY.
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academia50
Active Member
cafe latte
Addicted Member
You have shown very little knowledge in this thread, you posted that the contact patch on a basic shaved elliptical is the same as conical, it is not, this is so basic stuff.
Have you compared directly Jico to original retipped? No, I have.
Have you taken apart Jico and original.
No, again I have. The Jico has fatter tie wire, thicker cantilever and the suspension is far inferior to factory and far inferior to even a 20 odd year old original.
Have you measured them both side by side?
Again no, the Jico is not close to flat.
Re black diamond I no longer sell them. They were a bargain for what they were but thry never matched original retipped, but they were so cheap thry gave people on a budget a nude reasonable stylus.
What you don't seem to understand is when these carts were new the quality of the stylus were far greater than today.
Just like the EPC 205mk3 and 4 which I also own with both Jico and original stylus retipped.
The original had a special suspension made of a compound that does not change with temperature or age.
The Jico one is foam rubber.
The original has a silk tie back, the jico is wire.
The original has a hollow boron tube, the Jico is solid boron ( heavier).
The Jico sounds good, it is an OK stylus but it can't compare to the original which in every way it is made better, just like the 881 is.
Chris
malden
Lunatic Member
nice
cafe latte
Addicted Member
Yes I was stunned when he said elliptical and conical contact patches are the same.
What people need to understand is no matter how good Jico or anyone else is at making stylus, the super hard tapered alloy cantilevers or the one like in the 881 are simply not available.
Retipping replacing a cantilever we can't buy from anyone hollow boron, tapered thin aluminium etc. Suspension materials too much research was done and some carts like the EPC have very special elastomers which today are no longer available.
Jico and others are making ok stylus with what is available but thry can only do what is possible which is why for best performance a retip is the only option.
Chris
malden
Lunatic Member
I agree that the Shure V15 III is a bit on the dull side but it really shines when playing complex musical passages or recordings that are a bit bass heavy. For most of my recordings, I'm very happy with the Shure M44-7 with original and JICO styli. The high output works very well with my lower powered amps.
The Denon DL103 is intriguing to me since I have had only one MC cartridge, need to put that on my list.