Sansui AU-20000 vs AU-9900

[KeithD]

Looks like an AU-20000 is going to come for sale locally through a mutual friend. My Sansui gear is in my signature list. I have had an AU-9900 (that I restored) for several years. I'm wondering if there would be any sonic difference between a 20000 and a 9900? I feel like the 20000 would be a "signature" piece to have, but there is a significant price difference as well between a 20000 and a 9900. I am in no way unhappy with the gear I have and do really like my 9900, but I also know the odds of a 20000 showing up locally again are pretty small, so it's kind of "now or never." Has anyone compared the two in terms of sound quality? Any other thoughts/opinions?

 

[ivandezande]

The 20000 objectively sounds better, but there is way too much stuff packed haphazardly in there. I'd wait for a BA-3000/CA-3000 to show.

Or a BA-5000....IMO simpler, better sounding.

 

[DEFTECHY]

Probably just as unlikely for a BA/CA 3000 or 5000 to show up locally as a 20000, gotta jump when something like that shows up.

 

[Monicker1]

Moderator edit: removed value discussion bits as that would violate AK rules. Discussing the value of a unit is only allowed in the Dollars & Sense forum.

Here is my 1 cent worth:

I am within a 14 hour drive of an AU-9900 for sale. I see an AU-20000 available somewhere further away for more.
The price of the AU-20000 has soared parabolically in the past five years. The AU 9900 not so much.

If the small difference in sound and the pleasure of working meters is worth more to you, then money is not an issue and you would not be asking the question. The AU 9900 has all the features of the 20000 except for about 90 watts (3db and presumably more bass control at loud levels), a two step muting control and meters. What the AU-9900 has is useful bass and treble roll-off settings the 20000 doesn't have. This is a big plus in my opinion.

ivandezande mentions there is a lot of internal guts crammed into the au-20000, and unless you know what condition it is in, repairs by a competent tech will set you back more $$$. The AU-9900 is a known quantity to you. And I wonder if you could eventually sell the AU 20000 for much more than current prices given the way things are going.

Sound-wise: The AU-20000 was an achievement in its day. But I rarely see people in this forum say the AU 20000 is the best sounding Sansui integrated who have heard a lot of Amps. Their later high-end amps are more refined in design, and their earlier products had that "Sansui" sound which was achievable with relatively low wattage.

Personally I have a 20000. I have never heard a 9900. But I cannot say the 20000 strikes me as being absolutely second to none among the entire Sansui line-up.
I also have the AU 7900 which is almost a 9900 in a smaller box. I use the 7900 as much and enjoy it as much as the brute.

 

[Bright_Star]

If its local thru a mutual friend, then the best thing to do is audition the amp for yourself and see if its performance appeals to you enough to justify buying it.

Your own ears will be the best judge, just like your own taste buds determine what food & drinks taste good to You, vs what others prefer.

The 20K is more elegant looking being a 'Definition Series' claret red unit, vs the Pro Series gray 9900. But as I said, whatever sound quality/performance differences there are, thats on you, whatever you happen to perceive when listening/comparing but atleast you can audition in person before deciding to buy.

If the 20K has not been restored, you should be aware that it has some servicing concerns, just like the CA-3000 preamp with double sided solder feed thru rivets etc... Its a job for a tech experienced with vintage Sansui AU amps, so if there is no one like that in your area/driving distance road trip, then factor that into your decision.

The 9900's volume control knob has a more solid feel to it, though both units have a linear -3db around the whole dial, which means you usually have to crank the knob up to hear music at decent volume levels, a feature that I dont care for, compared to logarithmic, such as on the CA-2000 preamp (look and compare the numeral increments around the Volume dial).

 

[Monicker1]

Some 20000s had a black enclosure. I don't think this is a repaint.
Someone is looking to receive $7,500 Cdn for this scratched up old thing. Crazy.

 

[TomD62]

Never owned a AU-20000. Recently had an BA-2000 and CA-2000, along with an AU-9900A. To my ears, the AU-9900A sounded better and remains in my possession. The BA & CA were recently sold. If the AU-20000 is local and not obscenely priced, try it out. If it doesn't meet your expectations in your room with your speakers, send it down the road. There will always be a market for it.

Keep us posted.

 

[Bright_Star]

I ca

Some 20000s had a black enclosure. I don't think this is a repaint.
Someone is looking to receive $7,500 Cdn for this scratched up old thing. Crazy.


View attachment 3329367

I can assure you, NO AU-20000's or any Definition Series model (BA-5000, CA-3000, BA-3000) ever left the Sansui factory looking like that.

They all had claret red covers with only the front section block diagram part being black. The only reason it looks that way is because someone custom changed it that way, which was not a smart thing to do, but so be it. I would pass on it.

 

[Bright_Star]

I can assure you, NO AU-20000's or any Definition Series model (BA-5000, CA-3000, BA-3000) ever left the Sansui factory looking like that.

They all had claret red covers with only the front section block diagram part being black. The only reason it looks that way is because someone custom changed it that way, which was not a smart thing to do, but so be it. I would pass on it.

PS: It wont be a surprise if the BA-2000/CA-2000 would be similar to an AU-9900, basically taking an integrated and just separating it out, a look thru their service manual schematics would verify that, just like AU-20000 and CA-3000.

Most folks still seem to think just changing amps is going to produce some kind of audio nirvana- if something seems lacking in someone's hi fi setup, I would first look to the speakers and how they are setup in the acoustics of a listening room. A good amp + mediocre speakers = mediocre sound. Thus, if someone is looking to hear very noticeable differences, try changing loudspeakers instead of vintage AU amps. Sometimes even just a better vinyl pressing or remastered CD can sound like blankets were removed from speakers.

The music is coming from The speakers, you wont hear anything by putting your ears next to an amp itself.

 

[KeithD]

What the AU-9900 has is useful bass and treble roll-off settings the 20000 doesn't have. This is a big plus in my opinion.

Thanks for pointing that out, I somehow missed or forgot that difference. I agree, having three options for the treble and bass roll-off with the tone controls is very useful. Without a "Loudness" switch, one needs to use the tone controls if you want Loudness engaged. I have set the tone controls on my 9900 to a "loudness" setting that I like for certain types of music and I do use it for that purpose. I guess there is just too much packed in the pre-amp of the 20000 to include the treble/bass range settings. Otherwise, other than the meters, third set of tape in/out, and more power, the 9900 has the same "features" as the 20000, as far as I can tell.

Agree with @ivandezande that finding a CA/BA-3000 combo would be the best option for moving up the line, but also agree with @DEFTECHY the odds of that showing up within a few hours driving distance is small. Agree with @Bright_Star that the CA/BA-2000 is basically an AU-11000 in two boxes, so no real point to pursuing that combo.

I have thought about the possibility of auditioning the 20000, and could even A/B compare it with my 9900. Might do that at the mutual friend's "shop" (he buys/sells/repairs audio gear as a retirement hobby). I do wonder if any differences between these two might be a matter of one "notch" on a tone control.

 

[Bright_Star]

As I mentioned in my first post, yes, if the amp is local and available via someone you know, you should audition/A/B compare it.

You can speculate all you want, but its like wondering about buying a car, or finding out if a local restaurant has good food or not, you have test drive the car
and go to the restaurant to know the answer. In fact, it seems necessary to me- why risk buying an amp if it does not meet your expectations- when the guy with the amp is ready, let him know you're interested and arrange to evaluate it. But as I also said, being almost 50 years old- its likely to benefit from restoration. The solder feed thru's that also afflict the CA-3000 are known to cause channel dropouts, so if you hear that, thats the reason why.

 

[KeithD]

As I mentioned in my first post, yes, if the amp is local and available via someone you know, you should audition/A/B compare it.

You can speculate all you want, but its like wondering about buying a car, or finding out if a local restaurant has good food or not, you have test drive the car
and go to the restaurant to know the answer. In fact, it seems necessary to me- why risk buying an amp if it does not meet your expectations- when the guy with the amp is ready, let him know you're interested and arrange to evaluate it. But as I also said, being almost 50 years old- its likely to benefit from restoration. The solder feed thru's that also afflict the CA-3000 are known to cause channel dropouts, so if you hear that, thats the reason why.

Thanks for the additional advice. I do have some knowledge of the history on the 20000. The owner brought the amp to the mutual friend for service several months ago. I think it had not been used for a while. One channel was out, as I remember. He got it going, but it took him a while, and he stated it was all working when he gave it back to the owner. I saw the amp when he had it in for service, but never had the chance to hear it. When I stopped in to the guy's shop yesterday, in the course of conversation, he mentioned that the owner wants to sell the 20000. I was very surprised (since this is a top Sansui amp, and the guy paid quite a bit to get it going), and asked why the owner wants to sell. I was told he doesn't like the sound. Now, I don't know if that is the result of a bad repair job, or if the guy's sound tastes don't match what he's hearing. At any rate, were I to purchase the 20000 I know I would be looking at a full restoration to get it sounding as it should, whatever the current state is. That IS part of the issue for me. I suspect the asking price will be an e-bay price because it's "working"; however, I know the time and $$ it will take for a proper restoration.

Just want to mention that I (may be in a minority here) really like the linear volume pot on the 9900/11000/20000 series. With the three levels of muting, it really lets me dial in the volume level I want (and that volume knob IS smooth moving!) The problem I run into on my single digit receivers (with log pots and no muting switch) is listening at lower levels. It can be quite fiddly to get the right volume, since you are dealing with such a small range on the volume pot in low listening. No problem at all on the 9900. It's like it was made for any range of listening levels.

 

[Monicker1]

I asked my own tech why the AU-20000 does not have identical bass and treble control toggles to the CA-3000. He told me they had to pack a lot into that case with the huge transformers and components of the power amp section and there was probably no room for them. Cooling and air circulation can be an issue. He also said, having spent many hours on it that the AU-20000 is a complex and involved process to service. Mine started having problems relatively early in its life.

Without those controls and a loudness switch the AU-20000 loses one or two points out of 10 from being a dream machine. I might add that my 7900 has both the tone adjustments and a 2 position loudness/presence toggle.

I agree with you about the linear volume control, having the quieter levels spread out is easier to use since it spends 90% of its time in that range. There is a very limited range on the 7900 that one could call "quiet" or night levels.

 

[bolero]

Agree, extra controls like that & the stereo/mono switches are useful, I miss them on later amps

 

[CrSens]

The AU-20000 is not bought for the sound alone, it is a collectors item. Rarity, looks and desirability. In other words, the sound alone does not justify the asking price.

 

[Bright_Star]

It sounds like you are satisfied with the Sansui amps you already have, so I dont think the AU-20000, in its current condition, will provide anything extra to justify buying it. At this point in this discussion, if the amp still interests you- go and audition it and then report back on your thoughts/impressions if you are still undecided, until thats done, speculation can only take you so far, so less pondering and more doing is in order at this point. Dont think about what an AU-20K Might be like, just go and listen to its performance already so that you can go forward making a decision. Or just enjoy playing music with the amps you already have if there is nothing lacking with them and pass on the 20K.

 

[KeithD]

Plan to stop by the guy's shop this week and see if an A/B comparison with my 9900 would be possible. Don't know when the owner will actually bring the amp to the guy's shop, so we'll see.

Doing a comparison will most likely be for curiosity's sake. Agree, I'm happy with what I have, so don't see much advantage to the 20000. The price will need to be very favorable for me to be tempted by the 20000 at this point.

 

[Sansuiman]

I view the AU-20000 as a compromise, in the same sense a receiver is. They had to pack (most) of what was in the BA and CA-3000 into one chassis to make it an integrated amp, and sacrifices were made in order to do so. Yes, it is rare. Yes, it looks good. But for the money they command, I'd pursue the separates.

And note while the BA/CA-3000 are no fun to work on, the AU-20000 is even less so. The present valuations of the 20000 are driven by the rarity and perceived collectibility, and while I'll not say it's a bad model (it most assuredly isn't), the execution smacks of tradeoffs being made out of necessity.

Moderator edit: removed comment about value as that breaks AK rules about discussions of value only allowed in Dollars & Sense forum.

Full disclosure: I do own the BA/CA-3000 combo, so that certainly colors my view.

 

[KeithD]

I view the AU-20000 as a compromise, in the same sense a receiver is. They had to pack (most) of what was in the BA and CA-3000 into one chassis to make it an integrated amp, and sacrifices were made in order to do so. Yes, it is rare. Yes, it looks good. But for the money they command, I'd pursue the separates.

And note while the BA/CA-3000 are no fun to work on, the AU-20000 is even less so. The present valuations of the 20000 are driven by the rarity and perceived collectibility, and while I'll not say it's a bad model (it most assuredly isn't), the execution smacks of tradeoffs being made out of necessity.

Unless it's being offered at well less than current "eBay pricing" I'd not buy it, but then that's just my take. Full disclosure: I do own the BA/CA-3000 combo, so that certainly colors my view.

Agree with you. When you look at the 20000 from a purely functional standpoint, they are probably significantly over valued compared to other similar Sansui gear. And, if one doesn't need the watts or the meters, the 9900 is probably the best value in that line, given the sale prices you see. I actually think people have figured that out, as you don't see many 9900s for sale in the US any more. I love mine. It actually took a few years to "warm up" to it after I purchased it. Mostly because I had one intermittent issue that took me a while to figure out what the cause was (dirty connector pins). Since then, it's my centerpiece stereo amp with the TU-9900, although my restored/modded AU-999 is right up there.

All of the comments in this thread have made me realize the 9900 really is all I need. Even doing a comparison between my restored 9900 and a "working" 20000, might not be a useful comparison.

 

[Bright_Star]

If the person is aware of your interest in his AU-20K and feels inclined to invite you over to check it out, or to just socialize while the amp is playing some music,
you can visit sometime as a way to satisfy any curiosity you might still have on that model, otherwise no point to lose much sleep over it. It also depends on the seller-
if you think he might take offense to spending time there and end up not buying it or trying to price-haggle him, then maybe its best to just pass on it, though it would have been advantageous for both of you to do a local transaction, as it bypasses the time & effort for him to pack/ship/insure it, and for you to pay for that, as would be the case if it was sold online such as on Ebay, along with extra Paypal fees - thus if he is aware of that, I imagine he would have some flexibility on the price.

Just to clarify, the AU-20000 is an excellent amp. Sansui made a huge leap ahead in 1975 when these Definition Series models were introduced, compared to everything else in the product line up to 1974. It ignited all the success they experienced for the next 5 years of being at their peak, before 1980's quality cost cutting came along and hit them hard.

As for servicing/repair concerns- while not the easiest to work on, I dont think its much worse than most other models, such as a 9090/8080db and all the known dolby circuitry/parts headaches, which has not affected their popularity in terms of people still paying such high prices for them. Thus, I would not say an AU-20000 is over-valued, its a high quality amp capable of very impressive performance. Having a separate BA-3000/CA-3000 wont make a huge difference, as the CA-3000 will need the same servicing as the 20K does, especially with the solder feed thru's to correct the channel dropout issues. Its unrealistic for anyone to expect these vintage amps should function as if Sansui provide Lifetime warranties, most models have their quirks, whether its the corrosive glue on the 717 series, or the black flag caps on the 919, or the unstable oscillations of the AU-X1 and so on... the main thing is that if an experienced tech restores them properly, they are likely to last for a long time ahead, so its money well spent, whereas you can spend the same money on having to buy a new set of tires for your vehicle every 5 years or so, due to getting worn from mileage, or even not driving much and rubber will dryout, and thats money spent on a depreciating asset- the vehicle, vs a collectable, never to be made again, vintage (Sansui) amp.

Its great that we can still appreciate and use them, unlike many other appliances from the 1970's, be it washers, dryers, refrigerators, a/c's, vacuum cleaners etc that have been long thrown out in the average household, whereas vintage hi fi equipment can still thrive.