Shopping for a New SUV
- Thread starter Hyfi
- Start date
Again, the RDX is too small, but the MDX is still at the top of the list as of now.
Last night we drove a Honda Pilot. You get a lot of vehicle for the money. It did not ride any better than my 07 Rav4 tho. But, like all the others I have had to rule out, no matter what trim level you go to, you can still only get 4way passenger seats, so it's out.
We saved all the GMs for last and they are all right next to each other where I live. I will see if the Terrain or Envision is big enough but will also be looking at the Traverse, Acadia, and Enclave.
Now back to my ranting about car salesmen (persons)
You sell 6 vehicles that all share the same technology and features. Why don't these idiots know anything about the vehicles without having to check? It is pathetic when the customer knows way more than the sales person about the item in question. Why can't these assholes read the specs or manuals while they are sitting around so when someone asks about passenger power seats, they don't lie to you. First they told me the one in the showroom had it, NOPE. Then they got one for us to drive and said it had it, NOPE. Then they went out on the lot and looked at the most expensive top trim model, NOPE. I knew it before I ever went but decided to see how close to the MDX the Pilot was. Not even close aside from the shifting buttons.
Last night we drove a Honda Pilot. You get a lot of vehicle for the money. It did not ride any better than my 07 Rav4 tho. But, like all the others I have had to rule out, no matter what trim level you go to, you can still only get 4way passenger seats, so it's out.
We saved all the GMs for last and they are all right next to each other where I live. I will see if the Terrain or Envision is big enough but will also be looking at the Traverse, Acadia, and Enclave.
Now back to my ranting about car salesmen (persons)
You sell 6 vehicles that all share the same technology and features. Why don't these idiots know anything about the vehicles without having to check? It is pathetic when the customer knows way more than the sales person about the item in question. Why can't these assholes read the specs or manuals while they are sitting around so when someone asks about passenger power seats, they don't lie to you. First they told me the one in the showroom had it, NOPE. Then they got one for us to drive and said it had it, NOPE. Then they went out on the lot and looked at the most expensive top trim model, NOPE. I knew it before I ever went but decided to see how close to the MDX the Pilot was. Not even close aside from the shifting buttons.
BMWCCA
Addicted Member
Because . . .
1. They Honda salespeople don't get paid for their knowledge
2. They are hired to make 50 phone calls a day to cold prospects and just make an appointment
3. The customer doesn't pay any profit after researching the invoice price on the Internet and visiting three dealerships
4. The salesperson doesn't get paid on the manufacturer's holdback amount the dealership will still receive after selling a vehicle "below cost".
5. The salesperson doesn't get paid on the dealership's "processing fee" which usually amounts to more profit for the dealership than the car holds.
6. It's a shitty job that often doesn't pay minimum wage because the dealership doesn't care if they can answer questions—if they can just fog a mirror.
I started selling BMW, Porsche, and Audi back in 1976. Times have changed. Car sales are different than they were back then. Back then we were hired and trained to be knowledgeable and to help buyers make the right decision. Back then they paid us a fair percentage of a fair profit. Back then we usually got a "demo" car to drive for free, before the IRS decided that was equivalent to a $700/month lease payment and taxed us accordingly. Back then we may have even had retirement plans and health insurance. Customers have evolved to where they only want a Wal-Mart experience when they're buying a car: Just sell it as cheaply as possible with attendants who only need to know how to find an item and ring up a total. They don't want or expect product knowledge because they (as you said) already know the answer from the Internet. The customer already knows what the dealership pays for the car and they've already contacted TrueCar for the negotiated "best deal" the dealership has already offered. They don't need a client advisor but they still complain when the dealership isn't willing to spend money to provide one. And, if there is a knowledgeable client advisor who knows his product and can answer any question to help the customer make a decision, the customer is just as likely to go back to another dealership where they can't tell you anything about the car, where they won't follow up after the sale to answer questions you may have, where they won't care if you have a problem with the car—all so you can save 200-bucks on the transaction price.
See, you got me started!
Proud to be in my 41st year of selling BMWs, in many cases to three generations of the same family who value my assistance and my ability to save them money, all while helping them buy the right car with the right equipment to suit their needs—and to be there when they need my help in operating, repairing, or simply understanding their new high-tech product.
One thing I was told by the manager of an Acura dealership about an hour away from me--of all the car brands he has worked with (including brands at different dealerships owned by the same parent company), Acura shoppers tended to be the most educated about the vehicles they are buying. They've all researched the vehicles heavily, they've been online, they've compared features and specs and prices everywhere. This is probably true of many brands these days, given the power of the Internetz.
I can relate, though. I was picking up some fluids from our nearby Honda dealer a couple of years ago, and had commented on a newly released model to a salesman who was outdoors at the time. He had no good answers to the couple of casual questions I threw his way. Thing is, I get better answers from the service manager than I do their sales staff!
It's such a cutthroat business, though--the salespersons are hammered hard to close the sales and turn a profit (like @BMWCCA hints at above), not to be "experts" on what they sell. Kind of a shame, really. I have somehow managed to patronize smaller dealers over the years, and they are much more low key than the corporate shops around us.So far all the dealers I have gone to are small local dealers. I want to give my money locally, but they make it hard.
As per Acura, If I decide to buy one, I won't go back to the local one, or I will not deal with the guy we were stuck with because he lied about a feature because he really did not know the answer and did not care to say, I am not sure, let me check on that.
The bottom line is if the job sucks so bad, either get good at it and get promoted, or go get another job. But don't be a friggin Dumb Ass and know absolutely ZERO about what you are selling. I will not buy a car from someone that has no idea what they are selling or if they lie to me.
And yes, I have done my research and spec comparisons before I go out driving. I throw out simple questions just to test them. Like the woman at the Volvo dealership. Told me she worked for same dealer for years but had been selling Volvo for a year. I jokingly asked if Volvo was German and she told me Volvo was Japanese but moved to Germany. Dumb Ass, they were Swedish.
If I was this stupid where I work, I would not have a job.
As per Acura, If I decide to buy one, I won't go back to the local one, or I will not deal with the guy we were stuck with because he lied about a feature because he really did not know the answer and did not care to say, I am not sure, let me check on that.
The bottom line is if the job sucks so bad, either get good at it and get promoted, or go get another job. But don't be a friggin Dumb Ass and know absolutely ZERO about what you are selling. I will not buy a car from someone that has no idea what they are selling or if they lie to me.
And yes, I have done my research and spec comparisons before I go out driving. I throw out simple questions just to test them. Like the woman at the Volvo dealership. Told me she worked for same dealer for years but had been selling Volvo for a year. I jokingly asked if Volvo was German and she told me Volvo was Japanese but moved to Germany. Dumb Ass, they were Swedish.
If I was this stupid where I work, I would not have a job.
So having been selling the same cars for 41 years, can you answer simple questions about specs and features?
This is what I highly disagree on
"And, if there is a knowledgeable client advisor who knows his product and can answer any question to help the customer make a decision, the customer is just as likely to go back to another dealership where they can't tell you anything about the car, where they won't follow up after the sale to answer questions you may have, where they won't care if you have a problem with the car—all so you can save 200-bucks on the transaction price."
I am the exact opposite. If you CAN answer questions, know your product, and gain my trust, I am not worrying about $200 because later service also comes into play. If you don't know your product and cannot answer simple questions, I am moving on to the dealership that does and can.
After sales service is worth way more than $200 or even $500.
Why bother have salesmen at all? None of them can close a deal all by themselves unless a customer wants to pay sticker price. We may as well just research ourselves and order from Amazon.
Coming at this from the other end, I cannot sell anything if I know little or nothing about it. Granted, when I first started out in sales jobs I knew very little about the products, but picked it up as I went. One of the companies I worked for, in fact, had my first two weeks jam packed with product training, and further training sessions throughout the first month. It was heavy. The first week I was there, five different departments took me out to lunch on their dime. So, I also got to know the company and its people. Turned out to be one of my favorite companies to work for.
However, it was not a cutthroat business like selling cars either. Trust me, I'd love to sell cars for a living, but not under the insane pressures at some of these dealerships. It's too bad that the "knowledgeable nice guys (who can still close a sale)" finish last in that industry. And yes, some customers are assholes.
I finally made it out to see all the GMs.
Chevy Traverse was a little too big while the Equinox too small.
GMC Acadia was too big but the Terrain was the right size. We did not like the 2x - 4x switch as opposed to AWD and it rode like a truck
Buick - The Enclave again was bigger and more expensive than we wanted to go. We liked the Envision except for 2 things. The console is way too high and in the way, you whack your elbow getting in or trying to move in your seat. Also the rear seats and head rests block the drivers view out the back.
After all the evaluation, the Hyundai Santa Fe meets or exceeds all our needs. I can get the top Ultimate with every possible option for less than the Buick Envision Essence model, which does not include the decent stereo.
Tonight we will take one last look at the Acura RDX to see if we can live with the size. If not, we will stop right down the road and take another look at the Santa Fe. When we drove the Hyudai the first time, we could not really find anything we didn't like. It is as big as our 07 Rav4, has below storage like the Rav, has a decent stereo, Nav projected on the windshield at night and more.
I am as much as a car snob as an audio snob and just have a hard time putting a Hyundai on my driveway, but it is a decent vehicle. My mechanic did remind me that 10 year resale value will be a lot lower than with my Rav4, but with a lower initial cost, it may be a wash.
Chevy Traverse was a little too big while the Equinox too small.
GMC Acadia was too big but the Terrain was the right size. We did not like the 2x - 4x switch as opposed to AWD and it rode like a truck
Buick - The Enclave again was bigger and more expensive than we wanted to go. We liked the Envision except for 2 things. The console is way too high and in the way, you whack your elbow getting in or trying to move in your seat. Also the rear seats and head rests block the drivers view out the back.
After all the evaluation, the Hyundai Santa Fe meets or exceeds all our needs. I can get the top Ultimate with every possible option for less than the Buick Envision Essence model, which does not include the decent stereo.
Tonight we will take one last look at the Acura RDX to see if we can live with the size. If not, we will stop right down the road and take another look at the Santa Fe. When we drove the Hyudai the first time, we could not really find anything we didn't like. It is as big as our 07 Rav4, has below storage like the Rav, has a decent stereo, Nav projected on the windshield at night and more.
I am as much as a car snob as an audio snob and just have a hard time putting a Hyundai on my driveway, but it is a decent vehicle. My mechanic did remind me that 10 year resale value will be a lot lower than with my Rav4, but with a lower initial cost, it may be a wash.
The RDX (if you're looking at the brand new 2019 and not the last generation) is a different platform than the CR-V now, apparently, but even so, the CR-V was larger than the RAV4 when we compared them many years ago, so I don't think the RDX should be that small. (Or do you find it too large?) Regardless, all of them are built in East Liberty, OH. At least the RDX is using the new 10-speed automatic which Honda designed, as opposed that crap German-made ZF tranny that everyone dislikes. The turbo 2.0L would be a kick to drive.
The Santa Fe is built both in Korea and Montgomery, AL, so there is a 50/50-ish chance you'd get one US-made vs. Korean. (The first digit of the VIN number might reveal where it's made.)
If you're down to these two, they're both the first year of a new generation, so reliability stats aren't available yet. Wish these dealers would let us rent a new vehicle for a day or two, or a week, to see how we like actually living in them. (They don't in my area, anyway.) Sometimes, all it takes is one or two little bothersome things to make us regret buying a vehicle.
For the money, warranty, 0% financing and every possible option, the Santa Fe is looking like a winner. But, the one thing I was not as happy with were the seats. The seats were OK, a little on the BMW stiff side. When you get in and sit down, you don't sigh in comfort like my Lacrosse. The ride was not quite as smooth as the MDX or the Buick Envision but adequate and much better than my Rav.
I found 2 Volvo XC-60s close by that I can afford and we will take a closer look at the RDX just to make sure we are not settling.
But the Santa Fe Ultimate for $35K is a really good value if it holds up. With a 5 year bumper to bumper and 10 year drive train, it's worry free for a good long while. Oh and 5 year Roadside also.
The Santa Fe is actually larger length and width to my 07 Rav4, but every vehicle we looked at is in the 29" to 31" in height. The Rav is 37" high.
Both the RDX and the XC-60 are a tad smaller than the Rav but if the comfort level and stereo is that much better, it will be a tough decision.
I sure could use the extra $10K for Tax season and Roth IRA contributions and if we end up not loving the Santa Fe (if we got one) we can sell it and chalk it up to a lesson in settling.
I still have a dumb mental block putting a Hyundai in my driveway (let alone being seen driving one) but they are driving a really hard bargain to ignore.
2018 was the least problematic year for the SF but 19 is a slightly new model. Hopefully not enough changes to mess that rating up.
Please, if anyone has anything negative to say about Hyundai or the Santa Fe, let me hear it.
I found 2 Volvo XC-60s close by that I can afford and we will take a closer look at the RDX just to make sure we are not settling.
But the Santa Fe Ultimate for $35K is a really good value if it holds up. With a 5 year bumper to bumper and 10 year drive train, it's worry free for a good long while. Oh and 5 year Roadside also.
The Santa Fe is actually larger length and width to my 07 Rav4, but every vehicle we looked at is in the 29" to 31" in height. The Rav is 37" high.
Both the RDX and the XC-60 are a tad smaller than the Rav but if the comfort level and stereo is that much better, it will be a tough decision.
I sure could use the extra $10K for Tax season and Roth IRA contributions and if we end up not loving the Santa Fe (if we got one) we can sell it and chalk it up to a lesson in settling.
I still have a dumb mental block putting a Hyundai in my driveway (let alone being seen driving one) but they are driving a really hard bargain to ignore.
2018 was the least problematic year for the SF but 19 is a slightly new model. Hopefully not enough changes to mess that rating up.
Please, if anyone has anything negative to say about Hyundai or the Santa Fe, let me hear it.
It sounds like you are not the typical buyer ...
Dealerships live by the typical buyer, not buyers like you or me -
and that's simply the law of averages ...
This is no reflection on anyone in the biz, just what I saw in the DC area circa 1976
(Palmer Ford, East West Lincoln Merc/BMW, Laurel AMC/Jeep)
I tried selling cars circa 1976 -
be your own boss appealed to me.
Selling the car no matter what did not.
I could not bury some poor devil in a loan.
I decided it was not for me and got out.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
No doubt some things have changed since then!
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RamblinE
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Sales is weird. I can go days at work without having to discuss any technical specifications of cellphones beyond the plain basics like storage, ram, and a few other chotchkies.
The moment somebody actually comes in asking about processors most of us have to hit Google immediately.
It doesn't help that the store I moved to might as well be an unofficial Apple store. Knowledge on the rest of the products is nice but rarely asked for.
Edit: then again, the phone isn't really the product, the plan is.
The moment somebody actually comes in asking about processors most of us have to hit Google immediately.
It doesn't help that the store I moved to might as well be an unofficial Apple store. Knowledge on the rest of the products is nice but rarely asked for.
Edit: then again, the phone isn't really the product, the plan is.
OK, last 2 visits to showrooms, both Buick and Hyundai...
We went back to same guy that sold us our Lacrosse to look at GMs. When we decided we liked the Envision, the Essence trim did not have the upgraded stereo. Since it is not in the new brochure, the guy could not answer. He stared at a bunch of crap on his monitor, but really did nothing to find out. When we got home, it took me all of 30 seconds to go to the Buick site and Build an Envision, which tells you everything about each trim level as you select them. Now here is a guy selling Buicks for over 10 years, has numerous bullshitting awards lined up on his desk, but has no clue or ambition as to how to answer the most simplest of questions about one of the 6 vehicles he sells every day. When I saw him later that week getting my oil changed, I asked him why he never returned my email asking the question. He claimed he never got it. So I said, no worries, it took me 30 second to answer the question you couldn't answer.
Last night at the Hyundai Dealer....
We get a decent sales guy but during the test drive find out he was a Teacher for 40 years and has been at this job for only 1 month. With that, I was willing to cut him some major slack as he was trying. After the drive, we wanted to know if we could get the Gray Leather interior with the 2 color choices we liked. We again faced the same issue. He turns and asks the blond next to him and she suggests getting the manager. As the guy gets up, I say.....Sit down, we dont need a manager, go onto the Hyundai site and check. So he starts scrolling thru his own dealer website.....I say No, Hyundaiusa site, Build a Santa Fe....Low and behold, 30 seconds later I have my answer.
It is absolute bullshit, educated consumer, not the normal buyer, or whatever....that the sales people don't even know how to answer these simple questions Or even try to learn. And I am highly surprised that they are not taught from the start how to find these options and answer questions from the frickin MFG websites.
Sorry, really no excuses for this> The new guy, well I told him since I was doing half his work, I wanted half his commission right in front of the whole place. He tried and at least he learned someting, even if it was from me and not his own employer.
Seems like your mind is just about made up, but I just came across some good press on the new Subaru Ascent - looks like a real contender!
Quadman2
Lunatic Member
I 2 am having a hard look at this one...the "Ascent". More in keeping with the size that I want to end up with. Got an Imprezza 2010 right now that has offered me no grief, but in general this brand has been totally reliable for me in the past.
Not affiliated in any way with the Subes other than driving them.
Q
Thanks Crestwood! I thought I saw something like this driving past a Subaru lot recently but thought I mis judged the Forester.
I owned a Subaru Outback that was a Lemon and it took me a trip thru hell to get it resolved. Other than that it was the best vehicle in the snow and ice I ever owned and saved my life several times.
I will look into this one.
I owned a Subaru Outback that was a Lemon and it took me a trip thru hell to get it resolved. Other than that it was the best vehicle in the snow and ice I ever owned and saved my life several times.
I will look into this one.
No prob! I’m in the middle of a lease on a Highlander (no complaints so far and Toyota service has been outstanding), but will definitely consider one of these next. A third row is a must have for me so my choices are more limited. Here’s an informative overview by my favorite car nerd, Doug DeMuro:
RamblinE
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Aaaaaah I love seeing Doug here.