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So what about the plinth?

Others have already mentioned it but......

Massive plinths and massive torque IMO is the simple elegant solution. ...

Marc mc

IMHO, massive plinths and massive torque qualify as pure brute force.

Regarding ringing of the plinth material, how about a plinth made of rubber? Putting looks aside, the rubber provides adequate mass (higher than chipboard) and a lower Q (lower stiffness).

Obviously it would be hard to hold it's form without support so it could be reinforced by a steel skeleton.

BTW, the Technics SL1200 has a large piece of rubber sitting under the metal top cover of the plinth.
 
Others have already mentioned it but......

Massive plinths and massive torque IMO is the simple elegant solution. I just finished my second reference L75 because my first one made my well designed, sub and non sub chassied belt drives unlistenable on my other main system.

So much science and tech has gone into TT designs and sadly a large portion went into chasing the wrong rabbit. The Swiss simply said "let's make it like a watch that keeps perfect time ". We plunk it into 80lbs plinths and it's game over. I have listened to the monster tables since day one and these things give me absolute shivers.:thmbsp:

Marc mc

How much do their platters weigh? I'm guessing that's the reason for the high torque motor. With a similarly massive platter to act as a flywheel and to attenuate bearing noise, I can see how a TT like that would be a great performer.

I've been thinking of developing an air-bearing table, possibly using a precision ground granite disc as the platter. That would eliminate platter bearing noise and provide a great deal of flywheel effect for extremely stable speed.

I don't see why an air bearing 'table has to cost $$thousands. Then again, my Empire 598 sounds pretty awesome. I've just always thought I could build a better TT...

Someday, when the time and money mysteriously align, I'll do it.:D
 
IMHO, massive plinths and massive torque qualify as pure brute force.

Regarding ringing of the plinth material, how about a plinth made of rubber? Putting looks aside, the rubber provides adequate mass (higher than chipboard) and a lower Q (lower stiffness).

Obviously it would be hard to hold it's form without support so it could be reinforced by a steel skeleton.

BTW, the Technics SL1200 has a large piece of rubber sitting under the metal top cover of the plinth.

There are very stiff durometers of rubber available, so a skeleton may not be required. You'd need an insert or attachment for the bearing, and I'm not sure how well the thing would balance. One issue is that rubber is not terribly stable, dimensionally. However, there's also 2-part polyurethane. One of my customers makes everything from plow blades to ski racks for ski areas out of the stuff. Just needs a simple cavity mold, gravity poured, not injected like for plastics.
Could use it for the platter and/or the plinth. got to allow for 2% shrink, though.

Regarding the mass issue: if you can deal with the cost and are able to move it and shelve it safely, more mass makes it easier to create a quiet 'table. Light designs are much trickier to make truly quiet, and they probably can never be as quiet as the more massive version (all else being equal).
 
My first attempt at a granite plinth. About #32 total weight with the tt. The joints are epoxy'd. I like the way it looks but Personally I think it still rings more than the Cheezy old wood box configured exactly the same. I could do more. Dynamat,,Maybe some clay. Sugestions??

It's likely the metal top plate that is doing the ringing. Is there any damping mat'l between it and the granite base?

BTW, nice joinery with the granite!
 
What about constrained layer damping (CLD).... From reading here I've seen that mentioned with low mass plinths, where it's probably more important. If I was building a heavy mass plinth, would layers of different materials add anything?

If I was building one myself out of wood (because I have a saw!! :) here's some questions:

1. birch plywood seems to be a popular choice.... anything better? MDF? Layers of different materials?

2. Does the type of glue matter? Somewhere else I read the type of glue can matter (animal glue vs. normal wood glue) -- it's structure when dried can make a difference... fact or fiction? It's hard for a novice to tell what's splitting hairs and what really matters!

3. How "tall" should it be (how many layers)? Does this matter? Most pictures seem to show something like 3". Is anything gained by 4"? 5"?

5. is there a mass or weight I'm aiming for? 10 lbs? 20 lbs? 80 lbs? A plinth maker on the Bay has ones from Baltic Birch that weigh 8-10 pounds but wood can be removed for lead shot or sand.

Since I haven't seen any detailed plans for a TD-124 (dimensions of the openings in individual layers) this may be something I don't want to get into (although I do have a friend with a complete wood shop) and should just buy one!!!
 
What about constrained layer damping (CLD).... From reading here I've seen that mentioned with low mass plinths, where it's probably more important. If I was building a heavy mass plinth, would layers of different materials add anything?

If I was building one myself out of wood (because I have a saw!! :) here's some questions:

1. birch plywood seems to be a popular choice.... anything better? MDF? Layers of different materials?

2. Does the type of glue matter? Somewhere else I read the type of glue can matter (animal glue vs. normal wood glue) -- it's structure when dried can make a difference... fact or fiction? It's hard for a novice to tell what's splitting hairs and what really matters!

3. How "tall" should it be (how many layers)? Does this matter? Most pictures seem to show something like 3". Is anything gained by 4"? 5"?

5. is there a mass or weight I'm aiming for? 10 lbs? 20 lbs? 80 lbs? A plinth maker on the Bay has ones from Baltic Birch that weigh 8-10 pounds but wood can be removed for lead shot or sand.

Since I haven't seen any detailed plans for a TD-124 (dimensions of the openings in individual layers) this may be something I don't want to get into (although I do have a friend with a complete wood shop) and should just buy one!!!

Constrained layer damping is simple to build, but difficult to design properly, so that the system will actually work as desired.

The fundamental principle behind it is that the middle of a beam's cross section is in shear, while the top and bottom areas are in tension/compression. By laminating the beam, we can choose to put a material with high energy loss (hysteresis) under shear in that center. Then, as the beam flexes downward in the middle, the top skin goes into compression, the bottom skin into tension, and the central layer is in shear. (Shear means that the top of the layer is being pulled one way, and the bottom of the layer is being pulled in the opposite direction.) The small shear deformation of the central layer is repeated, back and forth, when the beam vibrates up and down, generating heat, and dissipating energy.

Constrained layer damping, (CLD from here on), when well designed, is an elegant way to build damping into a structure, since it uses a minimum amount of damping material which is placed in the area that it will be most effective.

If you have a thin beam or plate that is obviously vibrating a lot (enough to see or hear), then there's an easy way to use CLD to help. Bonding a thin sheet of neoprene to a thin sheet of aluminum or fiberglass, and bonding that to the part of the beam or plate that is moving (not just the over center, extend it to cover at least a third of span), will create a CLD system that should be quite effective. The skin of aluminum or fiberglass acts as the new outer surface of our CLD beam, the rubber is the center. The glue has to be strong/rigid enough that it doesn't creep, and will drive the shear into the rubber. The rubber has to be thin enough that it the shear will be concentrated enough to dissipate enough heat to damp the system.

That obviously leaves a lot design decisions, so let's say the rubber should be 1/8", the aluminum/fiberglass could be .025" to .063". I think that the strongest of the 3M spray adhesives (90?) should do the job.

Note that by ADDING the rubber/skin, we have made the existing structure stiffer as well as more damp. That will tend to reduce the amplitude of the vibration as well.

So, back to your plinth. I wouldn't pursue CLD, since it's going to take a lot of analysis to figure out where and how much. And the plinth likely won't be flexing enough to make it viable, anyway. If you're going to laminate it from birch ply, use woodworking glue, like Titebond. Then, maybe add a damping layer between the plinth and the turntable frame. That will kill some of the transmitted vibration.

It would be good to design the plinth with cavities that could be filled w/ sand or shot. Or you could put sections of steel rod/bar in there.
 
If you're going to laminate it from birch ply, use woodworking glue, like Titebond. Then, maybe add a damping layer between the plinth and the turntable frame. That will kill some of the transmitted vibration.
First, thanks again. This is all very enlightening!!!
What would be a good damping layer material to add?

The TD-124 has three metal rods (screws) that go into the plinth. At the top of each is a rubber mushroom shaped piece

TD_124_Mushrooms.jpg


What are these doing? Just isolating vibrations? I've read various other places about removing these, tightening the table to the plinth, etc.
It would be good to design the plinth with cavities that could be filled w/ sand or shot. Or you could put sections of steel rod/bar in there.
Is there an weight to aim for? Or is there a minimum or ideal?
 
As far a s the weight target, I'd say make it as heavy as you can comfortably lift.

For the damping mat'l between the plinth and the 'table, rubber is always good. Just make sure that it "gives" a bit under the weight of the 'table. That way you can be sure that it's not just acting as another rigid layer.

don't know enough about how those rubber ends are implemented to be able to say what they're doing...
 
As far a s the weight target, I'd say make it as heavy as you can comfortably lift.
I can get my wife to help and make it heavier!! :)
For the damping mat'l between the plinth and the 'table, rubber is always good. Just make sure that it "gives" a bit under the weight of the 'table. That way you can be sure that it's not just acting as another rigid layer.
from a practical standpoint, something like this - silicone rubber mat
or a neoprene like this? Rubber flooring? Any suggestions?

I'm trying to visualize this in my mind. I've got a plinth, say like this:

$(KGrHqV,!lUE2EDoNZHvBNlk,C)4eg~~_12.JPG


Does the rubber cover the entire top surface? or is it trimmed to be sort of out of sight, the same size as the Thorens itself?
don't know enough about how those rubber ends are implemented to be able to say what they're doing...
Me either... seems like they are a spacer to allow airflow since my plinth has no feet. This picture isn't mine, but shows the space between the table and the plinth, caused by the mushrooms.

td124800.jpg
 
For the damping mat'l between the plinth and the 'table, rubber is always good. Just make sure that it "gives" a bit under the weight of the 'table.
As I was thinking about this, the table doesn't touch the plinth at all -- the only contact is the rubber mushrooms -- top end on the table, bottom end in the plinth -- the small end goes into the hole in the plinth.

Adding a rubber damping layer would only contact from the rubber mushroom to the rubber damping layer. Would this accomplish anything the mushrooms by themselves won't do?
 
Great thread, with tons of really fantastic info for someone as ignorant as myself. Somehow I have come to prefer heavier / massier plinths on all my TT´s ever since I started experimenting with Middle of the Line Direct Drive TT´s in the 80´s.
Then, one day I got me a Thorens TD-124 and after a lot of reading and hard work I ended up with this: ( BTW, the rubber mushrooms are essential IMO ) The plinth of the TD-126 shown here will do for the time being:

DSCF4760.jpg


Then I got this plinth for my TD-160: ( Sorry no pics of the assembled TT yet ) and these sorbothane feet to help further:

TD-160plinth.jpg

feet.jpg


The difference was so huge on the TD-160 that, apart from some localized damping I am experiencing with, I have decided to go for this plinth for my TD-150 ( Not my actual unit ).

TD-150plinth.jpg
 
Great thread, with tons of really fantastic info for someone as ignorant as myself. Somehow I have come to prefer heavier / massier plinths on all my TT´s ever since I started experimenting with Middle of the Line Direct Drive TT´s in the 80´s.
Then, one day I got me a Thorens TD-124 and after a lot of reading and hard work I ended up with this: ( BTW, the rubber mushrooms are essential IMO ) The plinth of the TD-126 shown here will do for the time being:

I'm glad you like the info. Keep in mind that this stuff is the true nuts and bolts, the physics of what makes a turntable work. If you can get a good handle on it, you'll be able to make better decisions on what mods to make, how to make them, and what TT you want in the first place.

You look like you're well down the right road already, hifi-nut. Glad you brought up Sorbothane. It's pricey, but it was developed for the express purpose of dissipating mechanical energy. It's probably the best damping material available, bar none.

The last of your pics, of the Thorens plinth with the outboard feet, that's a thing of beauty. Beautiful workmanship and gorgeous wood.:thmbsp:
 
As I was thinking about this, the table doesn't touch the plinth at all -- the only contact is the rubber mushrooms -- top end on the table, bottom end in the plinth -- the small end goes into the hole in the plinth.

Adding a rubber damping layer would only contact from the rubber mushroom to the rubber damping layer. Would this accomplish anything the mushrooms by themselves won't do?

Most of the plinth builders over at Lenco Heaven have reported superior results when screwing the TT's top plate directly onto the wood.
 
Most of the plinth builders over at Lenco Heaven have reported superior results when screwing the TT's top plate directly onto the wood.
Maybe that was where I read about that..... Any Thorens users here done that?

It seems like the rubber mushrooms would absorb vibrations and be helpful....
 
and these sorbothane feet to help further:
feet.jpg
LOL!! I just went to google, entered "sorbothane feet" clicked on images, and scrolled until I found one JUST LIKE YOURS!!! I clicked on that image and it brought me right here to this thread!!! :D So where did you get yours?
Glad you brought up Sorbothane. It's pricey,
These at Amazon don't look that big, but seem pretty cheap.... Are there different "qualities" of it?

I talked to my friend with a wood shop (who builds incredible furniture in his spare time) and he said he'd help me and that it didn't look like a difficult process to build a plinth along the lines of the one shown in post #71 above. Probably a little more surface area on the top, and probably a couple of extra layers of the birch plywood.

It also occured to me that I could have a base that this could sit on, something along the lines of HiFi_Nut's beautiful work:

TD-160plinth.jpg


-- although not as finished on the top -- I was just thinking of some kind of box like that to fill with sand, put a top on it and set the plinth with the sorbothane feet on that. Would that do anything?
 
As I was thinking about this, the table doesn't touch the plinth at all -- the only contact is the rubber mushrooms -- top end on the table, bottom end in the plinth -- the small end goes into the hole in the plinth.

Adding a rubber damping layer would only contact from the rubber mushroom to the rubber damping layer. Would this accomplish anything the mushrooms by themselves won't do?

Unlikely that an additional layer would do anything useful in this case, since the rubber mushrooms are already in place.
 
There are very stiff durometers of rubber available, so a skeleton may not be required. You'd need an insert or attachment for the bearing, and I'm not sure how well the thing would balance. One issue is that rubber is not terribly stable, dimensionally. However, there's also 2-part polyurethane. One of my customers makes everything from plow blades to ski racks for ski areas out of the stuff. Just needs a simple cavity mold, gravity poured, not injected like for plastics.
Could use it for the platter and/or the plinth. got to allow for 2% shrink, though.

Regarding the mass issue: if you can deal with the cost and are able to move it and shelve it safely, more mass makes it easier to create a quiet 'table. Light designs are much trickier to make truly quiet, and they probably can never be as quiet as the more massive version (all else being equal).

You should take a peak, and listen, to a Rega P9 sometime. Lightweight, and dead quiet. The RP8 and forthcoming RP10 should be quite something.
 
You should take a peak, and listen, to a Rega P9 sometime. Lightweight, and dead quiet. The RP8 and forthcoming RP10 should be quite something.

I believe it. Mass isn't the only way to make a turntable quiet.

You really have to know what you're doing to get a light 'table working at a high level like they do. Lots of time spent with expensive instrumentation checking to see how the latest scheme actually works...
 
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