I, too, have struggled to find the right combo for my Sony PS-X60. Currently its a Grado Black with 8mz on original Sony headshell.
Sony PSX 60: question about catridge/stylus
- Thread starter Rosco148
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- psx60 shure m91ed sony turntable
Hi JimmyEJames,
to that! I'm just having some difficulty locating some. My local hardware stores are not helpful.
Break in the stylus and see what transpires.
Although I didn't try it, the PS-X60 is supposed to shine with moving coil cartridges. Sony made a couple with detachable styli ... couple of which were all-in-one cart and headshell, but beyond the task of finding one these days of course styli for those are rare or non-existent. One of the Sony turntables that have cycled their way through here came with one ... with a broken stylus of course. I think it was a VC-20. I gave it away to another local AKer.
Finding anything but aftermarket conical styli for the Sony MM carts is a difficult task these days too.
I can't recall which cartridges I used on the PS-X60s I had, except for an Andante E, which in current form is the Sumiko Pearl or Shelter 201. I felt the Andante sounded real nice on the PS-X60.
That Akai amp should be pretty decent. About 1983 or so ... they were still making some decent stuff then and that wasn't a bottom-of-the line model. Its actually the match to the cassette deck I had back then (GX-F31).
Actually, looking at the Sony user manual brings up an interesting point. Reference I have is that this tonearm is in the moderate-mass range at 20g effective mass. Not sure how accurate that number is. However, the tracking force and anti-skate I'm pretty sure only has a range of 0 to 2.5. I would have expected higher. 2.5g isn't going to get you too far into the low-compliance cartridge range, is it! I guess you could just do a Denon DL-103 at 2.5g tracking force or my suggestion of a m93e stylus runs at 2.25g.
Although I didn't try it, the PS-X60 is supposed to shine with moving coil cartridges. Sony made a couple with detachable styli ... couple of which were all-in-one cart and headshell, but beyond the task of finding one these days of course styli for those are rare or non-existent. One of the Sony turntables that have cycled their way through here came with one ... with a broken stylus of course. I think it was a VC-20. I gave it away to another local AKer.
Finding anything but aftermarket conical styli for the Sony MM carts is a difficult task these days too.
I can't recall which cartridges I used on the PS-X60s I had, except for an Andante E, which in current form is the Sumiko Pearl or Shelter 201. I felt the Andante sounded real nice on the PS-X60.
That Akai amp should be pretty decent. About 1983 or so ... they were still making some decent stuff then and that wasn't a bottom-of-the line model. Its actually the match to the cassette deck I had back then (GX-F31).
Actually, looking at the Sony user manual brings up an interesting point. Reference I have is that this tonearm is in the moderate-mass range at 20g effective mass. Not sure how accurate that number is. However, the tracking force and anti-skate I'm pretty sure only has a range of 0 to 2.5. I would have expected higher. 2.5g isn't going to get you too far into the low-compliance cartridge range, is it! I guess you could just do a Denon DL-103 at 2.5g tracking force or my suggestion of a m93e stylus runs at 2.25g.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
PUA-7 came with two counterweights plenty of range! ; - )
JJ
JimmyEJames
Super Member
Only match marks printed on weight for this
Look at stand alone PUA-7 and see bias scale go to three no numeral but scale is there
Printed number on counter weight for consumer reference so published same in manual
If need more bias than what ever three means then something obvious wrong with arm! ; - (
No such thing only scale is calibrated to that point and PUA-7 WITH correct head shell is high mass arm
Can not be mutually exclusive
JJ
JimmyEJames
Super Member
Marks on counter weights are only that marks
For purpose of reference and establish base line that is ALL they mean and good for
BIAS MAYBE a tiny bit more meaningful IF it accurately tracks with VTF scale but even then MEANINGLESS NUMBER as for actual value
Some machines and tonearms spot on other not so much especially when spring type bias adjuster get old
If any one want to think that because reference marks end at certain numeral mean tonearm only designed for that number of ACTUAL VTF setting amount then fine nothing I can say to help but nothing to do with design of tonearm beyond end user graphics for person with no scale using zero out method and little bit for bias
JJ
For purpose of reference and establish base line that is ALL they mean and good for
BIAS MAYBE a tiny bit more meaningful IF it accurately tracks with VTF scale but even then MEANINGLESS NUMBER as for actual value
Some machines and tonearms spot on other not so much especially when spring type bias adjuster get old
If any one want to think that because reference marks end at certain numeral mean tonearm only designed for that number of ACTUAL VTF setting amount then fine nothing I can say to help but nothing to do with design of tonearm beyond end user graphics for person with no scale using zero out method and little bit for bias
JJ
Don't agree at all. Sorry. If the designers at the time, looking at the range of available cartridge options both in-house and from other suppliers designed a tonearm that was incompatible, then they were pretty stupid. Whether or not spring type VTF work new or old isn't germane to the argument (other than yes, I think those designers were pretty dumb! -but that's really another arguement and one of the reasons I have a RB250 and not a RB300!)
Anyway the published specs for the Sony are 2.5g max. That's a fact. We have to assume that's what the designers intended as a working range for the tonearm. Looks like the scales go up to 3g. Whether or not you can use that full range, or beyond, will be dependant on ability to balance the tonearm and have the range available in the counterweight to apply the VTF.
Anyway the published specs for the Sony are 2.5g max. That's a fact. We have to assume that's what the designers intended as a working range for the tonearm. Looks like the scales go up to 3g. Whether or not you can use that full range, or beyond, will be dependant on ability to balance the tonearm and have the range available in the counterweight to apply the VTF.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
You are free to think what you like
Bias set scale IS relevant to comments because almost all consumer manuals tell owner to set VTF then turn bias wheel to same number
The numbers on scale end where meaningful close enough accuracy ends
Published numbers you keep quoting are for where SCALE ends does not mean engineers preclude all other cartridges and set ups!
If you look most professional tonearms not even fool with meaningless markings
You use simple formula total mass of tonearm and head shell if have one and select cartridge rough in from there NO MATTER what markings on arbitrary scale say
And TOOLS for set up
I also have service manual rebuild several of this machine and it not say max anywhere just indicate limit of graphics provided on machine
Like said I can not help you and do not care about try and argue you out of what you think your business but I make this last post on this subject for any one thinking of this tonearm YOU CAN SET VTF HIGHER THAN 2.5 grams on PUA-7 with no problem and get superb result from lead in to dead wax
JJ
OK, I can appreciate that both you gents have a deep technical knowledge of this table, so I'll just admit upfront that you both lost me a bit there!. So with respect to both, I will study and research till I understand.
My turntable seems like it could go to like 10grams cause the scale floats, you can zero it anywhere.
My question is: are there benefits to a very heavy VTF? Can't it damage your vinyl?
Van_Isle, Yes that's a very nice amp- I used to have the AM-U61 and have always regretted selling it. Its a really big, really smooth refined sound. I also have a Sansui AU717 in good condition, and the Akai specs compare well on paper, but they sound different. However, I find the Akai as pleasurable and refined, just warmer.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
That question just other argument waiting to happen but is more of issue with line cuts than with conical and if stylus and records clean 2 or 3 grams will not hurt Lps
Miss tracking can do harm before high VTF and if have both going on well you can visualize possible you cutting record a second time
Lower VTF easier to miss track unless alignment spot on with complex cuts
So for high VTF low compliance cartridge best to start off with conical until you master alignments
Anything over 2 grams for me and I only want conical any way
JJ
I never did say you couldn't set the range higher than 2.5g ... just that you might be limited by the ability to set tracking force by available adjustment range, depending on cartridge weight and what tracking force you are trying to achieve. The point is that 2.5g seems low to me for a tonearm that supposedly has an effective mass of 20g. And some have quoted 25g for the PUA-7 (whether or not the PS-X## tonearm is a PUA-7 or not is another point to discuss).
We are not talking about a 'professional' tonearm here anyway ... I have to assume you mean broadcast tonearm? Yup, a lot of them didn't have markings. A lot of them didn't have anti-skate either for that matter. For a consumer-level turntable, the designers spec'd a tracking force range that related to cartridge mass range and what was available and usable in terms of compliance. But for most tonearms if you push the envelope you typically run into issues. You're wagging the counterweight out at the extreme of its range or putting in the auxiliary weight for applications it wasn't intended for or hitting the tonearm pillar with the counterweight before getting tracking force dialed in. Your adding extra weight to the headshell and having it wagging around out at the extreme of the tonearm or searching for a lighter headshell that's still of decent quality and gives you the same VTA. Or you're searching for a cartridge of a certain compliance and are limited by mass. Those obviously are not situations that the designers expected the average consumer (or dealer) to have to deal with.
If you use the typically quoted effective mass of the PS-X60 with the Denon DL-103, your just at about 8.5 Hz resonant frequency. You get about the same with an Audio Technica AT95e and lower, at about 7.5Hz with an AT120e or AT100e. A Grado Black about 7Hz. A Sumiko Pearl about 8Hz. A Nagaoka MP-110 9Hz
Rosco148 .... you want resonance frequency to fall within 6 (or 7 or 8 ... recommendations vary) to 12 Hz ... below audible range but not too low to be in the same frequency range as warps on your records ... otherwise miss-tracking and other issues occur. 10Hz is the most-quoted target value I've seen. Resonance frequency is a function of tonearm effective mass (which typically is published including headshell but not cartridge and cartridge mounting hardware mass) and cartridge compliance, published by the cartridge manufacturer (in about 3 different forms!). You add cartridge mass and hardware mass to effective mass to get total mass. We don't have a good verifiable reference for effective mass of the Sony tonearm. The most-quoted value is 20g ... but I'm not saying that's correct. That, coupled with 'rule of thumb' conversions between the various compliance specs makes it a bit of a crap shoot to use the numbers. Here's a calculator to use: http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html Remember just an indicator to go by ... determining resonance frequency using a test record is really the best way to go.
Best of the examples shown above is the MP-110.
Regardless, it's interesting to note that the write-up in 'Total System Technology' states "our tonearms are compatible with practically all medium to high compliance cartridges": http://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/total-system-technology.shtml
While I don't think the PS-X60 came with a cartridge in the NA market, the Japanese PS-X70 manual on VE indicates a XL-15, XL-25 or XL-45II moving magnet cartridge or a XL-55 or XL-55Pro cartridge. All of those have compliances of 15 to 20cu and result in resonance frequencies in the 7.5 to 8 Hz range and track at 1.5 to 2g. I'm just getting the feeling that this tonearm is a bit lighter than the 20g that is quoted. And again some references give 25.
We are not talking about a 'professional' tonearm here anyway ... I have to assume you mean broadcast tonearm? Yup, a lot of them didn't have markings. A lot of them didn't have anti-skate either for that matter. For a consumer-level turntable, the designers spec'd a tracking force range that related to cartridge mass range and what was available and usable in terms of compliance. But for most tonearms if you push the envelope you typically run into issues. You're wagging the counterweight out at the extreme of its range or putting in the auxiliary weight for applications it wasn't intended for or hitting the tonearm pillar with the counterweight before getting tracking force dialed in. Your adding extra weight to the headshell and having it wagging around out at the extreme of the tonearm or searching for a lighter headshell that's still of decent quality and gives you the same VTA. Or you're searching for a cartridge of a certain compliance and are limited by mass. Those obviously are not situations that the designers expected the average consumer (or dealer) to have to deal with.
If you use the typically quoted effective mass of the PS-X60 with the Denon DL-103, your just at about 8.5 Hz resonant frequency. You get about the same with an Audio Technica AT95e and lower, at about 7.5Hz with an AT120e or AT100e. A Grado Black about 7Hz. A Sumiko Pearl about 8Hz. A Nagaoka MP-110 9Hz
Rosco148 .... you want resonance frequency to fall within 6 (or 7 or 8 ... recommendations vary) to 12 Hz ... below audible range but not too low to be in the same frequency range as warps on your records ... otherwise miss-tracking and other issues occur. 10Hz is the most-quoted target value I've seen. Resonance frequency is a function of tonearm effective mass (which typically is published including headshell but not cartridge and cartridge mounting hardware mass) and cartridge compliance, published by the cartridge manufacturer (in about 3 different forms!). You add cartridge mass and hardware mass to effective mass to get total mass. We don't have a good verifiable reference for effective mass of the Sony tonearm. The most-quoted value is 20g ... but I'm not saying that's correct. That, coupled with 'rule of thumb' conversions between the various compliance specs makes it a bit of a crap shoot to use the numbers. Here's a calculator to use: http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html Remember just an indicator to go by ... determining resonance frequency using a test record is really the best way to go.
Best of the examples shown above is the MP-110.
Regardless, it's interesting to note that the write-up in 'Total System Technology' states "our tonearms are compatible with practically all medium to high compliance cartridges": http://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/total-system-technology.shtml
While I don't think the PS-X60 came with a cartridge in the NA market, the Japanese PS-X70 manual on VE indicates a XL-15, XL-25 or XL-45II moving magnet cartridge or a XL-55 or XL-55Pro cartridge. All of those have compliances of 15 to 20cu and result in resonance frequencies in the 7.5 to 8 Hz range and track at 1.5 to 2g. I'm just getting the feeling that this tonearm is a bit lighter than the 20g that is quoted. And again some references give 25.
So, I've read over this thread, and still wondering - with the PUA-7 arm, which is well regarded, what would be a good cart matchup? I've been entertaining a Dynavector, and I think someone said the MC carts are supposed to work well with this table.
Thanks, everyone.
Thanks, everyone.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
Now telling new version of story
You quote one published specification as gospel truth but not so sure about other when it not help your opinion I think that odd?
You emphatic and wrote engineers design arm to not be used with VTF set above 2.5 now giant walk back
You make absolute statement that may be lead Rosco148 or other reader down wrong path belief
I write not true and stand by that simple
I know this because I own machine and used this way and weight not hanging off end and tonearm track like blood hound!
If not intended for use then why did Sony go to expense and provide auxillary weight? Not all consumer tonearms as you call have this option from FACTORY
Pro tonearm or consumer tonearm same rules apply
Believe what you want to believe use what want to use on your machine that is fine with me but at least get story straight and not write things maybe discourage owners to not try great options!
JJ
JimmyEJames
Super Member
I can tell you is VERY nice with glider but only use for short time until know for SURE no automatic malfunction in future!
Too big $ uh oh with that one if any thing goes wrong I am going to put on big hours with less $ risk and try DL-103 next week and can know then how that goes
Plus want conical any way hope I love DL-103 I buy two for price of glider retip
May be just stop retip trade in game and buy new 103 whe ever stylus wear out! : - )
I love automatic and service whole machine but still not going to press matter with $1000+ motor right away!
JJ
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JJ, my Sony does indeed tend to do odd things with the auto return. I have to push "start" and then wait a sec, THEN put the needle in the lead-in.
Would be crestfallen if I destroyed a new stylus that way. Thanks for the input.
Would be crestfallen if I destroyed a new stylus that way. Thanks for the input.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
My machine performs flawless BUT with any machine never know
Now is now and I only run in cycle for about a week on bench and play about 20 sides
If it does lose mind or have hidden surprise for me rather it be with $200 cartridge!
JJ
Well JJ, I guess as you say we each have our own opinion. Agree to disagree, eh?
JJ, I would ask if you could clarify what published spec am I not so sure about? If it's effective mass, I have, as I stated previously, never seen a published effective mass specification for the PS-X60, etc. or the PUA-7 as a stand-alone. As far as I am aware there are only statements of effective mass provided in various threads. If you have a published specification if you could provide a link or scan and post a document or if you have the ability to measure effective mass or 'reverse-engineer' from a test record and report here, please let us know. That would be much appreciated.
The auxiliary weight is meant for cartridges weighing 8 to 16.5g ... not for cartridges less than 8g. So yes, the Denon DL-103 (8.5g) theoretically should be used with the auxiliary weight but as you say, you should be able to dial in the VTF without it.
I guess the PS-X60 is, as others have commented, a bit of a 'special' case ... I recall a comment something like "it works well with cartridges you wouldn't expect would work well ... mainly because the bearings give it a 'light touch'". I've seen reports of high-compliance cartridges like the Shure m97xe, Stanton 680EEE and V15IIIs working well with it, although the numbers say they shouldn't be good matches. One poster said the V15III / SAS combo was the best they had heard. However, others (JJ included) say no, no, it doesn't work well with those cartridges.
When I asked the question back in 2011 I got answers ranging from:
DL-103
DL-110
DL-301MkII
Shure V15III
AT-7V
And earlier in this thread we had a recommendation of an AT120e and I identified what is essentially a Sumiko Pearl as being successful.
I would think that if you want a bit lower compliance then an AT95e would be a good choice. I know when I sold one of my PS-X60s that's what I put on it. And there are upgraded aftermarket styli available for it.
onwardjames, I feel your pain of confusion as to what cartridge to get ... recommendations are all over the map! And with your automatic functions, are you saying it won't start at all in automatic mode? Or is it just slow to start-up in any mode. I ask because one of mine had a stubborn start button ... that just needed a cleaning to work properly.
Rosco148, as I said let your m91ed break in. You might want to increase the tracking force a bit. I haven't had any issues with mine (EVG stylus) but others have reported that they are less compliant than the originals and run better at 1.5g at least.
You also have an Excel ES70S. You can still find elliptical ... or even better shibata styli for that cartridge. I have an EX70EX and a EX70EX4 that I used on my Rega RB250 with excellent results. Both those track at 1.5 to 2g. Should work fine in the PS-X60.
JJ, I do look forward to your impressions of the DL-103. I'm still pondering one for my Yamaha YP-D8. Another tonearm that, interestingly enough, works very well with a Shure V15 III or V15IV ... but on paper at least, should work well with the Denon.
JJ, I would ask if you could clarify what published spec am I not so sure about? If it's effective mass, I have, as I stated previously, never seen a published effective mass specification for the PS-X60, etc. or the PUA-7 as a stand-alone. As far as I am aware there are only statements of effective mass provided in various threads. If you have a published specification if you could provide a link or scan and post a document or if you have the ability to measure effective mass or 'reverse-engineer' from a test record and report here, please let us know. That would be much appreciated.
The auxiliary weight is meant for cartridges weighing 8 to 16.5g ... not for cartridges less than 8g. So yes, the Denon DL-103 (8.5g) theoretically should be used with the auxiliary weight but as you say, you should be able to dial in the VTF without it.
I guess the PS-X60 is, as others have commented, a bit of a 'special' case ... I recall a comment something like "it works well with cartridges you wouldn't expect would work well ... mainly because the bearings give it a 'light touch'". I've seen reports of high-compliance cartridges like the Shure m97xe, Stanton 680EEE and V15IIIs working well with it, although the numbers say they shouldn't be good matches. One poster said the V15III / SAS combo was the best they had heard. However, others (JJ included) say no, no, it doesn't work well with those cartridges.
When I asked the question back in 2011 I got answers ranging from:
DL-103
DL-110
DL-301MkII
Shure V15III
AT-7V
And earlier in this thread we had a recommendation of an AT120e and I identified what is essentially a Sumiko Pearl as being successful.
I would think that if you want a bit lower compliance then an AT95e would be a good choice. I know when I sold one of my PS-X60s that's what I put on it. And there are upgraded aftermarket styli available for it.
onwardjames, I feel your pain of confusion as to what cartridge to get ... recommendations are all over the map! And with your automatic functions, are you saying it won't start at all in automatic mode? Or is it just slow to start-up in any mode. I ask because one of mine had a stubborn start button ... that just needed a cleaning to work properly.
Rosco148, as I said let your m91ed break in. You might want to increase the tracking force a bit. I haven't had any issues with mine (EVG stylus) but others have reported that they are less compliant than the originals and run better at 1.5g at least.
You also have an Excel ES70S. You can still find elliptical ... or even better shibata styli for that cartridge. I have an EX70EX and a EX70EX4 that I used on my Rega RB250 with excellent results. Both those track at 1.5 to 2g. Should work fine in the PS-X60.
JJ, I do look forward to your impressions of the DL-103. I'm still pondering one for my Yamaha YP-D8. Another tonearm that, interestingly enough, works very well with a Shure V15 III or V15IV ... but on paper at least, should work well with the Denon.
JimmyEJames
Super Member
I never post that I think now you misquote me deliberately
I wrote several places I purchase mine and ran it with v15 and sound and set up was decent but far from best it could be LOT of cantilever deflection for main thing I did not like
Machine went to whole other level with glider and reason for 103 move coming next
I also post theory that many dealers were hanging high margin cartridges on this table just like on many others with no regard for best match and selling them to walk ins too
It would work and it create revenue
That is what I said
I am also thinking maybe you do not even own a PS-X60 only reading about them and then wanting to argue because now an expert base on extrapolation theory and vintage knob blurb
If you want specifications purchase comprehensive service manual for machine AND tonearm stop relying on partial free internet download
JJ
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