Speaker Wire, Gauge, etc.

[maxhifi]

Thanks for the Advice. I have not fired these up in years. I am planning on using them as extension speakers off my Visio TV in my reloading room. I will put the repair on the list.

On mine the capacitors dropped in value, which made the mids weak and muddy sounding. I actually measured the frequency response of the speakers before and after the replacement, and the difference was huge

 

[Bodyblue]

I have the Nova 7s which have the resin coated cloth surrounds and rheostats switches for the adjustments instead of the switches. I have never heard the 7Bs but I will tomorrow when I pick up a set from CL for $25 that have rough cabinets.....but the rubber is fine on them so I am excited to have a new project. When I got the 7s a few weeks ago my jaw hit the floor when I heard them. I could not believe how good a 45 year old speaker sounded! One of the reasons I bought a Marantz 2220B instead of a bigger one is that the shelf in the TV stand is so small it really restricts what I can put in it. Right now there is a Kenwood KR 4600 that drives the 7s very nicely. I also wanted a Marantz receiver so it would match the turntable below.

 

[Drum]

Ever seen a real poweramp? Had a look inside of it? One of those they like to say "you can weld with this one"? Here is a look inside one:

Notice the d imensions of those rails going from the powercaps and way back to the terminals. Then add a 14awg doorbellwire into your highend-speakers and feel smart.

So you recommend aluminum speaker wire since that is what the amp is using?

 

[unfairlane]

HUH? You are saying that no matter what is completely sufficient for an application, it needs more? We are not talking about power supplies, we are talking about speaker wire. I said NOTHING about 22AWG wire either. There is a reason there are guides for wire gauge sizes based on how long the run is...........because engineers have come up with them, you know like the ones that designed the units? Most of the charts ones sees are very conservative and I tend to follow them. Like I said before, if I have a short run of wire with a low power amp, going from 16 to 12G wire, will make zero difference in sound that can be measured. By your reasoning, everybody should use 6AWG wire for all systems all the time, which is moronic.

Speaker cables are a lot like exhaust-systems; they must be sized after the engine-size. This 6awg coil is meant for the heavier amps, not your tiny reciever. Take a breath

 

[SaturationPt]

WOW! This is as bad as when I asked about bi-amp!

DC or AC, they both need similar wire gauge for the same amperage. The reason that house electricity is AC is because it can be transmitted as 10s of thousands of volts, and inexpensively changed to 220v with a transformer. If you divide the voltage by 1,000, you multiply the current by 1,000 (approximately, for explanation's sake). Plus, generating electricity with an AC generator (alternator) is cheaper, and speed control is built into motors with the 60hz (50hz in other countries) output. If you sent 32,000vdc down a power line it would be difficult to change voltage at every house (and expensive, and have more losses). Anyway, the higher voltage means lower current, and smaller wires. This is the same reason why cars are starting to move to 48v systems, ... smaller wires.

Also regarding wire gauge in homes (etc.)? This is based on temperature rise of the wire in conduit, in underground cable, in romex in walls, NEC is mostly about fire prevention not audio quality. If your house's supply is 117vac and it drops to 110vac at your outlet with the refrigerator running (better catch it LOL), it really doesn't matter. If your audio voltage loses 7v from the amp to speaker, ... not good.

Your amplifier has some very small traces and conductors taking the output from amplifier to speaker sometimes. As others have mentioned that is because it is a very short distance and the losses are minimal. Look at some of the circuit board traces from the protection relay or speaker switch. If your speakers are 4' from your amplifier, and you have 100W into 8ohms, you should be FINE with 14awg and even smaller. 25wpc and 8ohm speakers? Sure 22awg will work at 6'.

OTOH, if you're pushing 4ohm (remember this is nominal, not minimum) speakers routed around the room 25', with a 200wpc amplifier (I do), it is prudent to use a heavier gauge wire. For those big booms, you will have less losses (it is about resistance, and about converting some of this energy into heat).

As others have mentioned, it's not about the wires' ability to handle the current without fusing, it is about the losses of the high-current transient and voltage depression at the speaker end. Will you lose detail? Probably. Will you hear it? Don't know. If you don't care? that's fine too.

As important is the connection that you make (crappy corroded screw connections with corroded tinned-lugs or wire vs clean copper wire connections on good quality copper or clean tinned connectors or better still would IMO be gold-plated lugs or banana plugs).

Am I a speaker wire snob? Nah, can't afford that stuff. With my longer runs I am happy with high-purity copper 12awg zip-cord style speaker wire. I don't always need 12awg, but if I just have one gauge of wire around for all systems, ... I can always find a matching set.

Many will also tell you that having the speaker wires the same length will matter. I suppose that is technically true, but provided you don't have one 50' long and one 3' long, I doubt that small differences will have a noticeable effect. I do prefer to not coil up extra cable, seems that an lot of wire in a coil could create a choke? Maybe, ...

 

[House de Kris]

You have your theory down really well and are real articulate with time enough to toss a bunch of numbers into the conversation but to answer your question. Yes I have years of experience testing wires over many miles. The reason you see resistance is the scale you are using your meter. Notice I never mentioned it because I knew someone like you would bring it. You change the scale and I am right. Scale from 2000 to 20and you picked the middle. It adds resistors to the reading right??? YES IT DOES. Get rid of em. Use the most sensitive scale.
In my experience we could measure within 30 feet where a short was on a pair of wires well over a mile long as the resistance would change over a known reference pair. Now For the point of my post no one uses these lengths of wire for audio/music with exception of remote radio broadcasts say from a promotional event of a radio station which we used to do in the 1980's We used very sensitive test equipment to enable music and voice to transmit from the remote locations to the broadcast stations. Over a certain number of feet/miles the line had to be conditioned for the impedance with Inducters to balance the inherent capacitance of the line. To this point which was miles a dead short was readable. So back to audio wire.
Scales matter on this and you know it. I usually use the lowest scale looking for a short. The resistance read on that same shorted wire will change with each scale but you can see a dead short.
As for the milli micro yea you got me. Been a long time since i hit the books.
For the point of the OP statements my points stand true without all the math you pose. The wire length used in audio is too short for gage to matter on perceived audible to the normal human's ear. Any resistance differences in gage will not change it. What was your point other than to try to belittle me?

To answer your last question first, no it wasn't to belittle you. It was merely to respond to a statement you made with cold hard facts. An attempt to spread education. Just as this particular post in this thread it an attempt to further explain how things work, and not to belittle you. And, just as ehoove suggests, keeping this exchange civil and respectful will prolong the life of this thread.

One of your statements I was responding to was, "putting a value on this resistance it would take miles and miles of wire to see it with a ohm meter." I simply illustrated that it doesn't take miles and miles of wire to see the resistance. My example was of an ohmmeter that could see the resistance with a single foot of wire.

Furthermore, you said, "On the other a ohm meter set anyway you like," with respect to setting the ohmmeter up to read the resistance of a spool of cable. "Scale from 2000 to 20and you picked the middle," don't know where 2000 to 20 come from, but I picked the most sensitive range of that particular meter, which is what you later indicate is what should be done. It adds resistors to the reading? Uh, no. The reading is the resistance of the measured length of wire. Hence, there are no resistors to "get rid of."

And yes, I do know scales of the meter being used is important. That is why I choose the most sensitive scale, 100ohms, for this measurement.
Yes, I did get you on the milli vs micro blunder. Not only that, I got you on your baseless claim about not being able to measure the resistance of "a full brand new roll of 16 gage lamp cord."

Finally, your conclusion of, "For the point of the OP statements my points stand true without all the math you pose. The wire length used in audio is too short for gage to matter on perceived audible to the normal human's ear. Any resistance differences in gage will not change it." What is perceivable to the listener is highly dependent on the individual listener. But, the gauge of the speaker cable does influence the spectral balance of the signal reaching the speaker. Although shared in post #25 earlier, I'll put the link here again for you, https://passlabs.com/press/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil . Please read it. Has absolutely nothing to do with how powerful the amplifier is.

This thread started out with the OP asking about using the same gauge cable as the wire inside the power amplifier's output section. Numerous posters have pointed out that the length of the speaker cable between amp and speaker is considerably longer than the length of the wire inside amplifier itself. That length is important. That minimizing effects are realized by having cables larger in diameter than for the short run inside an amp. Don't think anyone said not to try it. Just that the logic of using what's inside the amp on the outside of the amp isn't all that great.

 

[House de Kris]

Great example but you took my point way to literally. But what I said is still right. Never said I had a amp big enough to do it. The point was the gage can only tolerate so much power, but then you knew that and still needed to what?

I was just pointing out just how big of an amp is required to fuse a 22ga wire while driving an 8ohm speaker. Because the amp needs to be so huge to make this happen, I really don't think it is much of a possibility to fuse the wire.

 

[Champco]

I was just pointing out just how big of an amp is required to fuse a 22ga wire while driving an 8ohm speaker. Because the amp needs to be so huge to make this happen, I really don't think it is much of a possibility to fuse the wire.

Completely agree.
But one time I was taking some Demo speakers home for a few days. Do not remember what they were. Kind of remember a Clear acrylic front I think. Supposed to handle 200 watts.
Well I gave em a test Long and loud. Had a fan over my VSX9500 to keep the heat overload from triggering.
I had em full tilt boogie blasting I cant recall what it was. When one speaker quit... I panicked, shut stuff down swapped speaker leads and found the woofer in one no longer worked. I was worried I had blown it but How I was way under their rating.. So I pulled the back off and inspected looking for something open or burned. It did get hot but nothing evident. Till I ran my fingers along the leads so the woofer. They had gotten so hot they were touching and had melted the insulation till they shorted. Soon as I separated them it worked fine. Never seen that before but lesson learned. I took em back. The wires were smaller then the speaker wires I was using.

 

[Champco]

To answer your last question first, no it wasn't to belittle you. It was merely to respond to a statement you made with cold hard facts. An attempt to spread education. Just as this particular post in this thread it an attempt to further explain how things work, and not to belittle you. And, just as ehoove suggests, keeping this exchange civil and respectful will prolong the life of this thread.

One of your statements I was responding to was, "putting a value on this resistance it would take miles and miles of wire to see it with a ohm meter." I simply illustrated that it doesn't take miles and miles of wire to see the resistance. My example was of an ohmmeter that could see the resistance with a single foot of wire.

Furthermore, you said, "On the other a ohm meter set anyway you like," with respect to setting the ohmmeter up to read the resistance of a spool of cable. "Scale from 2000 to 20and you picked the middle," don't know where 2000 to 20 come from, but I picked the most sensitive range of that particular meter, which is what you later indicate is what should be done. It adds resistors to the reading? Uh, no. The reading is the resistance of the measured length of wire. Hence, there are no resistors to "get rid of."

And yes, I do know scales of the meter being used is important. That is why I choose the most sensitive scale, 100ohms, for this measurement.
Yes, I did get you on the milli vs micro blunder. Not only that, I got you on your baseless claim about not being able to measure the resistance of "a full brand new roll of 16 gage lamp cord."

Finally, your conclusion of, "For the point of the OP statements my points stand true without all the math you pose. The wire length used in audio is too short for gage to matter on perceived audible to the normal human's ear. Any resistance differences in gage will not change it." What is perceivable to the listener is highly dependent on the individual listener. But, the gauge of the speaker cable does influence the spectral balance of the signal reaching the speaker. Although shared in post #25 earlier, I'll put the link here again for you, https://passlabs.com/press/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil . Please read it. Has absolutely nothing to do with how powerful the amplifier is.

This thread started out with the OP asking about using the same gauge cable as the wire inside the power amplifier's output section. Numerous posters have pointed out that the length of the speaker cable between amp and speaker is considerably longer than the length of the wire inside amplifier itself. That length is important. That minimizing effects are realized by having cables larger in diameter than for the short run inside an amp. Don't think anyone said not to try it. Just that the logic of using what's inside the amp on the outside of the amp isn't all that great.

Ok We are going to disagree on some of this. The RCL reactance testing I have done was as I said over long lengths of wire.Twisted pair which inherently create Inductance reactance. This can have some effect audio/volume wise so it's compensated for with a slightly larger gage wire and a capacitor load but this is over miles.
When testing the loss we were using test tones' and measuring in decibels as the electrical properties were almost immeasurable in Ohms.

I read over the article which some of it would, as always of any scientific study, be questioned . A 10 foot piece of wire may offer these measured differences but I would have to see it myself. I cannot believe anyone could hear a difference of music from a given set of wires. Marketing can and will puff up a study with claims which again can be questioned. I may just for kicks take this article to Magnapan for a opinion and I may learn something.

I would expect this type of test to be done with test tones and oscillators and frequency meters and decibel meters. I played with DB meters a lot for years and tested my own hearing range which was average. I am pretty sure the tone became inaudible at 6000-7000 hz or so. Could still hear it increase but it was so low. The fact is, above that frequency it does not matter. Women hear higher frequencies then men. A fact. I have tested many times in noisy bars. Used a app called sonic grenade. I could start it and some woman around me would react to it way before I heard anything. It's funny to watch. Frequency and Decibel levels are not mentioned in your article.
A article on sound. Check your ears....

 

[Mark B]

The fact is, above that frequency it does not matter. Women hear higher frequencies then men. A fact. I have tested many times in noisy bars. Used a app called sonic grenade. I could start it and some woman around me would react to it way before I heard anything. It's funny to watch.

This is unethical and definitely not funny.

 

[SaturationPt]

Completely agree.
But one time I was taking some Demo speakers home for a few days. Do not remember what they were. Kind of remember a Clear acrylic front I think. Supposed to handle 200 watts.
Well I gave em a test Long and loud. Had a fan over my VSX9500 to keep the heat overload from triggering.
I had em full tilt boogie blasting I cant recall what it was. When one speaker quit... I panicked, shut stuff down swapped speaker leads and found the woofer in one no longer worked. I was worried I had blown it but How I was way under their rating.. So I pulled the back off and inspected looking for something open or burned. It did get hot but nothing evident. Till I ran my fingers along the leads so the woofer. They had gotten so hot they were touching and had melted the insulation till they shorted. Soon as I separated them it worked fine. Never seen that before but lesson learned. I took em back. The wires were smaller then the speaker wires I was using.

Difficult to believe, 200w continuous into 8ohms is only 5amps, to have enough heat rise to melt PVC on wiring in free air with 5amps would be very small wire, and I doubt that you were able to maintain 200w continuous, or even 100w.

I think that the points that have been made are evident above, if you want to use doorbell wire and feel that you can justify it, go for it. If you want to err on the high side, go for it. If your budget allows for high-end specialty wires, there's no harm in that either. But endless stories that are off-track and without any real data or even a point, ...

 

[Champco]

200w continuous into 8ohms is only 5amps, to have enough heat rise to melt PVC on wiring in free air with 5amps

Did I say Continuous?? No.
5 Amps is a LOT of current. 1 Amp can kill you.
Look at any Woofer wiring. between the voice coil and the terminals. Very slightly if at all coated Some more then other. This coating was maybe a minor dip or spray during MFGing. With 16 Gage speaker wiring of maybe 15 feet these two smaller wires are a hier resistance choke point that has only one way to reduce resistance and that way is to heat up.

But endless stories that are off-track and without any real data or even a point, ...

Really? Use the ignore feature or practice some tolerance. if you cannot understand the point just ask.

 

[Champco]

This is unethical and definitely not funny.

Save the feigned outrage for some other cause. no one was harmed in this action. Volume was very low. I said Many. Many can be misleading it was no more then 5 times. Have not done it since.
Had I just made the statement that Women hear higher frequencies then Men you would have just accepted that right? So I offered some evidence up front.
get over it.

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

With 16 Gage speaker wiring of maybe 15 feet these two smaller wires are a hier resistance choke point that has only one way to reduce resistance and that way is to heat up.

I am not sure that you wrote what you meant to say.

With the exception of some specialized devices, NTC (negative temperature coefficient) the resistance of a wire increases with temperature, it does not decrease.

It would be an increase in the resistance of the smaller wire that could lead to a small increase in temperature.

 

[SaturationPt]

Champ you're not improving here, you are backpedaling and showing a bit of hostility.

Points have been made, and you continue to change the argument to avoid being incorrect, troll on.

 

[Champco]

I am not sure that you wrote what you meant to say.

With the exception of some specialized devices, NTC (negative temperature coefficient) the resistance of a wire increases with temperature, it does not decrease.

It would be an increase in the resistance of the smaller wire that could lead to a small increase in temperature.

I wish i had meant to say that but I didn't. You are correct. My thinking came from what little Solid State training I have had considering Thermal Runaway in semi-conductors. I mistakenly thought it was also a trait in copper wires. Did not know resistance actually will increase as the electrons collide and heat things up. Thanks for having me look into it further. https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-12/temperature-coefficient-resistance/

 

[Champco]

Champ you're not improving here, you are backpedaling and showing a bit of hostility.

Points have been made, and you continue to change the argument to avoid being incorrect, troll on.

Well i certainly backpedaled on post # 137 but really not so much before. You see me changing the argument when I go from electrical properties to frequency tests and for that I am sorry. it may certainly seem that way. The reality is impedance affects both. My only point to make here is I do not believe anyone can hear a difference in frequency response response iE; listening to music. Just by changing the gage of a conductor. The one article cited here examples 40 foot of wire which I do not know anyone who uses that much in one room. It then says a 10 ft piece has perceivable sound qualities of different MFG/Style ect. I do not buy it.
As for hostilities. Anything I have done is in response to a post. However I do notice I am the one being chided for it here. Show me where I am wrong. Just like you saying troll on. I say learn to read.

 

[maxhifi]

Well i certainly backpedaled on post # 137 but really not so much before. You see me changing the argument when I go from electrical properties to frequency tests and for that I am sorry. it may certainly seem that way. The reality is impedance affects both. My only point to make here is I do not believe anyone can hear a difference in frequency response response iE; listening to music. Just by changing the gage of a conductor. The one article cited here examples 40 foot of wire which I do not know anyone who uses that much in one room. It then says a 10 ft piece has perceivable sound qualities of different MFG/Style ect. I do not buy it.
As for hostilities. Anything I have done is in response to a post. However I do notice I am the one being chided for it here. Show me where I am wrong. Just like you saying troll on. I say learn to read.

Just for fun I made a little table. I am using 20 foot speaker cables (each has 40 feet of wire), since my equipment is off to one side near the couch in a fair sized room. This shows the signal loss at the speaker versus the amplifier, for 8 ohm and 4 ohm speakers, and different wire sizes. Note that if your speakers have an impedance curve which dips even lower than 4 ohms, the loss will be even more substantial. Since I am using 16 AWG cables and 8 ohm speakers, I think I'm in the clear.. but any loss over 1/2dB may be audible to someone!

 

[unfairlane]

Difficult to believe, 200w continuous into 8ohms is only 5amps...

This is one of the main reasons why so many hifi-designers, "enegineers" and others so totally misses the target. No mister, music is not a continuos signal like the current flow in your ac. Music is a wery dynamic and transient signal. Wery. And the challenge here is not to reduce this transients.

The most effective way to reduce these transients is to hang on long, thin wires. Stranded. (then add tiny passive filters..) The only way to eliminate this loss is to do the oposite.

Btw; I`ve read through mostly all of those links from several "cable-experts" posted earlier, none of them are even close to see the light.

There is a lot of info on this out there, here is just one I picked, to illustrate:

http://www.glasswolf.net/papers/headroom.html

 

[GSS61]

IBTL