Technics SL-1200 series as an audiophile turntable?

[thedelihaus]

Back on topic, one thing I loathe about the SL-1200 are the feet.

I get a little shell-shocked at the custom KAB feet, but they are some serious kit.

The stock technics feet though? Garbage.

Sony used to put on some nice feet on their PS series- gelling filled. And early technics feet were adequate.

My opinion is these feet are like putting KEDS on an athelete.

 

[thedelihaus]

The Rega arm swap has been loved by plenty, but also has had a sour impression on others who have performed it.

I still think upgrading the tone arm wire and adding the fluid damper, a cost of what, under $250 at highest, is going to net some serious, or at least noticeable, performance enhancements.

The Jelco arms seem to be a nice alternative if indeed you want to mess around with arm swapping. I'd forego the 250 though as I feel it's not a noticeable leap forward. The excellent 750 Jelco may be worth it though.

As for me, I have a stocker SL-1710 with stock arm, and I have an SL-120 and SL-110 that I don't mind trying different arms on.

 

[markd51]

The Rega arm swap has been loved by plenty, but also has had a sour impression on others who have performed it.

I still think upgrading the tone arm wire and adding the fluid damper, a cost of what, under $250 at highest, is going to net some serious, or at least noticeable, performance enhancements.

The Jelco arms seem to be a nice alternative if indeed you want to mess around with arm swapping. I'd forego the 250 though as I feel it's not a noticeable leap forward. The excellent 750 Jelco may be worth it though.

As for me, I have a stocker SL-1710 with stock arm, and I have an SL-120 and SL-110 that I don't mind trying different arms on.

I disagree, about the Jelco 250 Arm. In essence, this Arm is the Audioquest PT-6-7-8 Arm, and even could be said as the Graham Robin Arm as well, with just a couple chrome pieces added on to beautify essentially the exact same Arm.

It is a very good Arm, IMO better than the stock Rega RB-250/300. Better wiring, and adjustable VTA for one (but not on the fly).

I've found these Arms to be able to handle mega dollar Cartridges, exceeding the Arm's cost by ten times. Yep, I've placed a brand new Benz Ruby 3 Cartridge on a AQ PT-8 Arm, on my Denon DP-2550 Table, and was pleasently surprised. Closing my eyes, I swore I was listening to my modded VPI Table, which I think says a lot.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, if such an Arm was aboard the Technics, and gave similar results.

Not too many folks debate the speed stability of the technics, but the major feuds seem to usually be about the Technics Arms. Mark

 

[Mr. Lin]

We only get carried away due to the fact that these machines are amazing bargains for the money. They're very nice stock and are easily tweakable into something even better. They have never lost their quality even with inflation. I like many different turntables and many different approaches to drive systems and tonearms. I like quality build and engineering. The high end specialty companies don't dabble in direct drive due to the cost of developing those specialized motors and all that custom IC circuitry from scratch. Even Panasonic couldn't afford to do it now. Goldmund is one of the few who ever dared do that. If the SL-1200 was a new design from scratch, it would cost over $2500 new. Since they've been in continuous production since 1972, they're a bargain since the old tooling was paid for many years ago. They're not for everyone but well suited for most vinyl and music lovers needs for a solid, well made basic turntable. But not your only option out there.

I don't mean offense by this, but "carried away" implies exaggeration, that's why I chose those words. Like I said, I know they're good turntables with lots of terrific aspects, but calling this a audiophile turntable is an exaggeration. I see less "bashing" in these threads than people pointing out that the SL1200 is not the world's greatest sub-$2000 turntable, which seems to hit a nerve.

 

[SA-708]

I think your definition of "audiophile turntable" is different than mine.

 

[Old_Tech]

I don't mean offense by this, but "carried away" implies exaggeration, that's why I chose those words. Like I said, I know they're good turntables with lots of terrific aspects, but calling this a audiophile turntable is an exaggeration. I see less "bashing" in these threads than people pointing out that the SL1200 is not the world's greatest sub-$2000 turntable, which seems to hit a nerve.

I agree. Anything said about the 1200 that is not positive strikes a nerve and inspires post after post (like the runs) of defense and innuendo from the same people. And they take their opportunity to bash oh yes you can believe that.

I wanted one once before the price went over 500 bucks for a table that seems to require countless mods from the ground up to sound "better" Why's that? Whats wrong with it? For 500 bucks I can buy vintage gold.

For under two thousand I can buy a gorgeous Rega P3-24 or Music Hall to die for! If you love the Technics then spend the 500 bucks on it. I'll spend that money on a great cartridge thank you. Pooh Pooh!

 

[Cantabury Guy]

Do the moderators still consider the content of this thread to be worthwhile? Just wondering if it has sunk to a level where the plug should be pulled ? IMHO, of course.

 

[bsujeep]

Do the moderators still consider the content of this thread to be worthwhile? Just wondering if it has sunk to a level where the plug should be pulled ? IMHO, of course.

I (very sadly) am in agreement with you. I remember the good old days of AK when people weren't allowed to bash equipment. I know the Mods do an excellent job of this and there has already been a warning in this thread. I find it very sad that this warning has been ignored and an innocent thread about a product some people like has been crapped on in such a way.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I (very sadly) am in agreement with you. I remember the good old days of AK when people weren't allowed to bash equipment. I know the Mods do an excellent job of this and there has already been a warning in this thread. I find it very sad that this warning has been ignored and an innocent thread about a product some people like has been crapped on in such a way.

What bashing? And this thread is not off topic, read the title.

 

[SA-708]

I wanted one once before the price went over 500 bucks for a table that seems to require countless mods from the ground up to sound "better" Why's that? Whats wrong with it? For 500 bucks I can buy vintage gold.

For under two thousand I can buy a gorgeous Rega P3-24 or Music Hall to die for! If you love the Technics then spend the 500 bucks on it. I'll spend that money on a great cartridge thank you. Pooh Pooh!

I can still order a SL-1200MK2PK from KAB, shipped, for south of $500. I could also trick it out at KAB for around the price of a Rega P3-24 with the TTPSU, and I wouldn't touch a Rega without that "mod" to fix the speed problems. Spending more to modify a turntable and resolve problems with the base model isn't unique to the 1200s.

$2000 is out of my price range; for the $500 I might could spend I'd get the KAB SL-1200MK2PK. In reality, I'm having too much fun with the vintage machines I have to spend more on turntables, and my cartridge collection has grown far too large. If I'm gonna spend, speakers are my weak link right now.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I may have missed that one. Can you post a link?

Ok it was farther back than I recalled, but I found it. Most relevant is his last post on the last page.



http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236779&page=6

 

[Billfort]

Like Mr. Lin posted, this thread pretty much is staying on topic, just so happens not everyone shares the same opinion on this table and I don't have a problem with differences of opinion.

We DO have a problem with comments on Moderation and personal attacks so please stay clear of these or this will get locked down - and I don't want to do that.

It seems every time a thread is started on the 1200 where questions are raised on it's relative performance compared to everything else, we inevitably slide into conflict. Some say there is much better out there and some say the Technics is the last word in audio - all just opinions and only you can decide if you want to make this table part of your system.

We can all share our thoughts but at the end of the day not everyone here is going to agree so let's keep the discussion interesting and within the rules.

Thanks.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

SA-708,

Good points. That Rega should have had good pitch stability as standard. If an old $69 new AR-XA could be broadcast accurate speed wise except for startup time, then the $800 plus Rega should be too.Both when new. Not an option. The Linn LP-12 does meet that even in an original model without later upgrades in good repair. A true test of engineering thought. Also, for those who use 45 RPM records (many current deluxe audiophile records offer 45 sets for the best option) being able to change speeds easily should not be overlooked. Even if you must handle the belt manually. Running fast or pitch wavering is inexcusable in any quality turntable by any manufacturer. Piano and solo guitar are especially unlistenable if this isn't complied with. If a speed box is needed to do this, then you must factor this in the total cost of the turntable. If many older turntables new could hold speed over 4-6 hours continuous use in a dealer demo environment, your machine should and must. I demanded this even when I was 10 years old, I still insist on it. Otherwise, it's not correct. No matter how good it is otherwise. Your ears are what matters in the end. Satisfy them as much as your budget will allow.

 

[Bigerik]

SA-708,

Good points. That Rega should have had good pitch stability as standard. If an old $69 AR-XA could be broadcast accurate speed wise except for startup time, then the $800 plus Rega should be too. Not an option. The Linn LP-12 does meet that even in an original model without later upgrades. A true test of engineering thought. Also, for those who use 45 RPM records (many current deluxe audiophile records offer 45 sets for the best option) being able to change speeds easily should not be overlooked. Even if you must handle the belt manually. Running fast or pitch wavering is inexcusable in any quality turntable by any manufacturer. Piano and solo guitar are especially unlistenable if this isn't complied with. If a speed box is needed to do this, then you must factor this in the total cost of the turntable. If many older turntables new could hold speed over 4-6 hours continuous use in a demo environment, your machine should and must. I demanded this even when I was 10 years old, I still insist on it. Otherwise, it's not correct.

What do you base this on? I have had three Regas of various kinds through here over the years, and I have never had any kind of speed issue with any of them. Actually, they all seemed excellent.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I base this on 3 new P3 examples picked from random when the P3 was new. The Rega importers then were Lauterman Imports in Knoxville, TN. They were just launching the Rega line in the USA. I will say that the Regas got better later on. Lauterman took very good care of us on service and support. I love the Rega line and do think they have improved. We do have a problem in the TVA region with jacked up line voltages. The speed box does help. But the early models did run a bit fast. This is remedied. I am actually going to try a Rega RB 300 in my SL-1200 Mk II. I do have the Origin Live tonearm mounting base. I plan on getting another current Rega model for evaulation and will post on it objectively. I want new perspectives on it and fresh listening at length. I always liked the musicality of the Regas. I can't wait to hear another one. I would love to see a Rega tonearm with interchangeable headshell or tonearm wands since my phono needs are varied. I do keep multiple options around. I also want to hear a Rega cartridge with open ears.

 

[jdwk]

A bit of a recap. this new wave started because a poster (cant remember) was happy to have gotten a 1200. I told that poster that I was building a Macintosh system with that as my turntable, then this happend:

Any Technics TT's in any modification is a great entry-level low-end TT suitable for DJ'ing and Radio Broadcasting due to it's sturdyness.

However, it is recommended, by user and e.g. BBC, to modify this TT until not recognisable anymore.
Platter, Bearing, Arm, Plinth, Power, Motor Control, Motor, Signal Path, Lid..... you name it.......anything!!!
I have even seen a modification to the better suggesting to alter the TT into a suspended one.

Buy different and get it right, or almost right, from the start.

"dolph"

Ok. now my post (directed at the op who started this thread up again) did not warrant that responce "the buy different and buy right" is not me getting mad because he doesnt agree that the 1200 is the best money can buy (which I never had said, never will say) I dont mind if somone likes another turntable better than a 1200, I KNOW its not the best money can buy, but saying "buy different and buy right" is saying it is wrong to own this turntable....thats is whats bothering all the posters in the 1200 camp since then. now do all the 1200 haters see what I am talking about? so no talk of hitting nerves, mine arent hit. It just seems evryone has the wrong idea about why we're annoyed, thats alll. not trying to stir up any arguments..just trying to clear up the point that is getting lost. no need to lock the thread. You can own any table you want, even if it actually IS worse then a 1200.

 

[HypnoToad]

Let's not confuse this type of comment with "having attitude" or being impolite to the Technics owners. To call the SL1200 a "audiophile" turntable is a HUGE stretch (regardless of upgrades), and to say it's the biggest bargain in turntables under $2000 is flat out wrong. Anyone recall Hypnotoad's recent thread? :scratch2:

It's not that I'm trying to put down the Technics owners, I know they're nice turntables, but people get carried away about them here.

I have a Technics SL1200 Mk2 and a Pro-Ject Perspective.

First of all the SL1200 Mk2 sells for around $400.00 the Perspective with the carbon fiber arm sold for around $1500.00.

The Technics is easier to set up, easier to adjust and easier to use, no question.

I tried the same carts on both, Goldring 1012 GX and Denon DL-110.

Playing the same LP, Love Over Gold by Dire Straights I found this.

Both carts sounded good the Goldring better than the Denon on both tables.

With either cart on the Perspective the sound was more open, more detailed, more realistic.

In comparison the Technics sounded constricted and more two dimensional.

But ONLY in comparison with the Perspective.

Does the Pro-Ject sound nearly four times as good as the Technics?

No way to measure it, it's purely subjective. All I can say is it sounds noticeably better.

Since I paid less than twice for it than I did for the Technics it was well worth it IMO.

I still use the SL1200 Mk2, it's a fine table, will last you a lifetime and is easy to setup and maintain.

If I had a VPI Super Scoutmaster I bet it would sound significantly better than the Perspective.

But at nearly four times the price so it should.

As should the Perspective over the Technics.

If you love your Technics don't worry what others think or say, yours is the only opinion that really matters.

 

[Mr. Lin]

I have a Technics SL1200 Mk2 and a Pro-Ject Perspective.

First of all the SL1200 Mk2 sells for around $400.00 the Perspective with the carbon fiber arm sold for around $1500.00.

The Technics is easier to set up, easier to adjust and easier to use, no question.

I tried the same carts on both, Goldring 1012 GX and Denon DL-110.

Playing the same LP, Love Over Gold by Dire Straights I found this.

Both carts sounded good the Goldring better than the Denon on both tables.

With either cart on the Perspective the sound was more open, more detailed, more realistic.

In comparison the Technics sounded constricted and more two dimensional.

But ONLY in comparison with the Perspective.

Does the Pro-Ject sound nearly four times as good as the Technics?

No way to measure it, it's purely subjective. All I can say is it sounds noticeably better.

Since I paid less than twice for it than I did for the Technics it was well worth it IMO.

I still use the SL1200 Mk2, it's a fine table, will last you a lifetime and is easy to setup and maintain.

If I had a VPI Super Scoutmaster I bet it would sound significantly better than the Perspective.

But at nearly four times the price so it should.

As should the Perspective over the Technics.

If you love your Technics don't worry what others think or say, yours is the only opinion that really matters.

Well, I pointed out your thread because the Pro-Ject you got retails at well under $2000, and it seems from your descriptions that it's clearly better than the SL1200, in your opinion. All the improvements over the Technics that you described, increased detail and a natural, wide open sound, is what you should expect from a turntable of that caliber, and it will likely do justice to cartridges costing twice it's value. Now put a better cartridge on the Pro-Ject and then tell us what you think.

As for ease of setup, expect to have to put more effort into this sort of thing the higher up the ladder you go, it's just the nature of vinyl playback.

 

[Maxxarcade]

Some may laugh at me for this, but I'm pretty happy with my old SL-1600Mk2, with AT440MLa cart and Bellari VP129 Preamp. Maybe not audiophile, but not entry level either IMO.

 

[thedelihaus]

I disagree, about the Jelco 250 Arm. In essence, this Arm is the Audioquest PT-6-7-8 Arm, and even could be said as the Graham Robin Arm as well, with just a couple chrome pieces added on to beautify essentially the exact same Arm.

It is a very good Arm, IMO better than the stock Rega RB-250/300. Better wiring, and adjustable VTA for one (but not on the fly).

I've found these Arms to be able to handle mega dollar Cartridges, exceeding the Arm's cost by ten times. Yep, I've placed a brand new Benz Ruby 3 Cartridge on a AQ PT-8 Arm, on my Denon DP-2550 Table, and was pleasently surprised. Closing my eyes, I swore I was listening to my modded VPI Table, which I think says a lot.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, if such an Arm was aboard the Technics, and gave similar results.

Not too many folks debate the speed stability of the technics, but the major feuds seem to usually be about the Technics Arms. Mark

Mark, thanks for weighing in on this- much appreciated.

I have no personal experience with the Jelco- purely armchair speculation here.

But- if you're that fond of the 250, I can only imagine the 750 is a real work of art.

Thanks again on your first-person perspective of this arm.