Technics SL-1200 series as an audiophile turntable?

[thedelihaus]

Ps- 15 bucks is a steal.

The big difference in an original and a MK II is the MK II is quartz locked. No big deal- a smidge better perhaps to have quartz locking, but only a smidge.

 

[whell]

Its amazing the debate that the Technics 1200 and its variants causes. Is it the best turntable in the world? No, not by far. Is it the best table in its price range? Could be. Are there other tables that can match it on features for the dollar? Consider:

If I'm a Pro-ject turnable owner, and I want to assure that I've got stable speed on my turntable, I've got to purchase the Speedbox. Its currently $159.

With the Technics, quartz - locked speed control is built in.

Lots of folks go on about replacing the tonearm on the Technics, as the arm is believed to be the "weak point" on the 1200 MK II and above. The popular candidate is the RB-250 or RB-300 arm. However, if you want VTF on the fly with these arms, that'll be an additional $150 or so. Or you can buy the pain in the rear spacers for $17 a piece.

Oh, and you want to change/rotate cartridges? Can anything be simpler that the Technics 1200?

I suspect any perceived shortcomings in the 1200 MK II and above tonearm can be overcome with careful cartridge matching, not only to the table but to the rest of your system. In the extreme, you can rewire a 1200 tonearm, or go for the 1210 M5G which has the improved tonearm wire and cables in the stock version.

Set up of the 1200 series? Can it be any easier?

All of these, and many other items, point to alot of turntable for the money. And the Technics tonearm will mate well with cartridges that are both inexpensive, as well as the mega-buck moving coil cartridges. I've got a Ortofon Kontrapunkt that finds its way on my Technics from time to time when I'm going to be doing some undisturbed listening. It sounds like pure magic is coming from my speakers when I'm playing this combo.

So, yes, the Technics can be anything you want it to be, including a serious contender for best value and best sound in its price range. My 1210 M5G is bone stock, and I have no urge to upgrade it at all.

Go for it if you're so inclined, and enjoy!

 

[SLM3Tech]

I just acuired a sl1500 full manual operation only turntable in mint cond. could any one tell me what or where in the food chain this model is compared to the 1200. it sure looks close, I picked it up for 15.00 at a antique store. plays awesome just need to know more about, it seems very heavy as to the other technics Ive handled in the past.

I have a 1500MK2. I had a 1500. Both good TT's. However, there are some significant differences. The 1500MK2 is a suspension table. The tonearm is closer to the "1200MK2 type" and it is Quartz. I would say, IIRC, a 1501 would be quartz where as a 1500 would not be, same with the 1400MK2, 1401 Quartz - 1400 non-Quartz, and so on...

If it's a MK2, your getting quite close to the 1200MK2. I would say the main difference in the tonearms would be the helical VTA adjustment on the 1200MK2 as opposed to the "set-thumb-screw" of the 1500MK2. I'm not sure if there is easily adjustable VTA on the 1500 if at all.

The chasis of the MK2's all around tend to be more substantial than that of the "MK1's". Personally, I have found that the suspension on the 1300 thru 1500MK2's tends to "sag" with age and may need attention. For that reason I tend to go for my 1200MK2's and SL-M3 more often. There are websites dedicated to the differences. I would check out the "Vintage Technics" page. I believe it's vintagetechnics.info

Still, if it works, at $15.00 !?!?! Who can say "boo"? Slap down some vinyl and have fun with it! :thmbsp:

EDIT: Sorry, to directly answer your question... there were substantial improvements that led up to and were included in the SL-1200MK2. So, in the hierarchy of things, technically you're down a few notches (if we're talking about an SL-1500). You're getting closer with any of the MK2 series; but, the 1200MK2 is the culmination of a great deal of thought, design, engineering and manufacture. To equal it (in terms of specs) you'll have to look to the SL-M# series and to go beyond that you'll have to look to the SP series and supply your own tonearm.

 

[thedelihaus]

Original 1300-1500s do not have VTA.

I didn't think the sl-1300/1400/150O MK IIs were suspension- the original 1300-1500s weren't, but the original 1600/1700/1800s were, as was the 1600/1700/1800 MK IIs.

Arms on the MK IIs got trickle-down design elements from the EPA 100 arm.

A few other changes.


But a 1500 original is a great table.

Currently I own an sl-110(0), sl-120(0), sl-1200 MK II (two of 'em), and an SL-1700 MK II, and recently sold (and miss) an sl-1300 and SL-1700.

 

[marantzfan]

New SL-1210 m5g owner here....I LOVE this table and just cannot say enough good things about it. I have mine mated with a Benz-Micro Silver which is a very sweet combination....

Audiophile looking? Maybe not. Audiophile performance? Without question. :yes:

 

[restorer-john]

I too find it hilarious when the so-called 'weak point of the arm' is regurgitated over and over, all without ANY supporting facts. The arm is beautiful, infinitely better constructed than the cheap Rega- there, I said it, the rega is cheaply made. What is costs retail is irrelevant. Oh yes, 25 years ago the 'casting' may have been a bit clever, but it certainly isn't well finished, the bearings are poor, the cueing, antiskate, arm clip and counterweight all look and feel like fisher-price stuff. There is no comparison with any half decent cartridge when it comes to tracking- the rega's bearings chatter and it cannot track a really warped record. The technics arm can, at 1 gram or less with a V15 III MR. I dumped my rega TT and arm ages ago, and as for our deluded friends at a certain english magazine that seem to be holding shares in a certain rega modification outfit- I laugh everytime I use one of my 1200s or my personal fav, the 1600mkII. Matsushita and the Japanese know how good the table was and is and the 'audiophiles' are finally realising that too. Pity they didn't realise 20 years ago when Technics, Yamaha, Micro etc had their really good stuff out there.

 

[SLM3Tech]

Original 1300-1500s do not have VTA.

Thanks for the confirm. I didn't have mine very long; but, didn't think so.

I didn't think the sl-1300/1400/150O MK IIs were suspension- the original 1300-1500s weren't, but the original 1600/1700/1800s were, as was the 1600/1700/1800 MK IIs.

The 13-1500MK2's definitely are suspension. I've got a 1400MK2 (with the auto/manual push button switch) as well. The side note is that the 150MK2 (essentially a 1500MK2 without the arm) came with a super thick wood armboard and was NOT suspension. It still retained the external (to the dust cover) digital controls. I need to have a new armboard made for the one I have.

Arms on the MK IIs got trickle-down design elements from the EPA 100 arm.

And what a fantastic arm that was/is! Titanium nitride I believe. My SL-M3 also has a titanium nitride arm (as did the others in the line, IIRC). I too used to think that arm (and it's 1200MK2 spin off) was a weakness; but, like was stated above, get a Cardas rewire and a fluid damper... match cartridge compliance to the tonearm and look out! Even the SME's of the day had add on fluid dampers. With proper setup, the arm isn't a weakness at all. There is A LOT of bad hype out there about "the wheel of steel". I'm just glad a lot of that is getting exposed for what it is.

But a 1500 original is a great table.

When compared to some (even modern day manufactures), I can't say Technics has ever built a truly and utterly crappy turntable. What I see is a steady process of building more excellence into their product with each model getting better than the last. Especially considering they make armboards to fit all kinds of arms to it (if that's your thing), where do you go from what they've already accomplished in the SL-1200MK2 (and SP series and the SL-M series) ??? Things would just have to become crazy esoteric and expensive from there. Maybe that's why they put out the LTD Gold Edition. It's not like it had any more functionality; but, ooooooo niiiiiiicccceee! :drool:

 

[thedelihaus]

New SL-1210 m5g owner here....I LOVE this table and just cannot say enough good things about it. I have mine mated with a Benz-Micro Silver which is a very sweet combination....

Audiophile looking? Maybe not. Audiophile performance? Without question. :yes:

Congrats, Anthony!

 

[thedelihaus]

Thanks for the confirm. I didn't have mine very long; but, didn't think so.



The 13-1500MK2's definitely are suspension. I've got a 1400MK2 (with the auto/manual push button switch) as well. The side note is that the 150MK2 (essentially a 1500MK2 without the arm) came with a super thick wood armboard and was NOT suspension. It still retained the external (to the dust cover) digital controls. I need to have a new armboard made for the one I have.



And what a fantastic arm that was/is! Titanium nitride I believe. My SL-M3 also has a titanium nitride arm (as did the others in the line, IIRC). I too used to think that arm (and it's 1200MK2 spin off) was a weakness; but, like was stated above, get a Cardas rewire and a fluid damper... match cartridge compliance to the tonearm and look out! Even the SME's of the day had add on fluid dampers. With proper setup, the arm isn't a weakness at all. There is A LOT of bad hype out there about "the wheel of steel". I'm just glad a lot of that is getting exposed for what it is.



When compared to some (even modern day manufactures), I can't say Technics has ever built a truly and utterly crappy turntable. What I see is a steady process of building more excellence into their product with each model getting better than the last. Especially considering they make armboards to fit all kinds of arms to it (if that's your thing), where do you go from what they've already accomplished in the SL-1200MK2 (and SP series and the SL-M series) ??? Things would just have to become crazy esoteric and expensive from there. Maybe that's why they put out the LTD Gold Edition. It's not like it had any more functionality; but, ooooooo niiiiiiicccceee! :drool:

I believe you on the MK IIs being suspended- just surprisex as i thought that's what separated the 1300-1500 and 1600-1800 models, including the originals and the MK IIs.

I'd love to see pics of that wild sounding SL-150 MK II if you don't mind.

And of the arm on that- was it M3? You mentioned?

Titanium nitride- very nice if it is!

I did a bit of research on the Rega arm and while it's appealing, I am now thinking it's not a path I'm going to take.

I never was going to give up on the stock arm- I've got a few tables and considered it as a possible fun project.

But a cab modified stocker sounds nicer to me at this point.

The SL-110 and SL-120 I have are stock SME 3009 arms from the factory.

I also may try a Sony PUA-7 arm on one of them- really dig that arm.



Ran into a friend that tossed an EPA arm and table (either an SL-110 or 120) because he busted the ruby bearings in it.

I was distraught to hear that. Jeweler supply stores can source those type bearings.

I'd loved to have had that arm...

 

[illinoisteve]

Do you need a widescreen color tv with a flat panel and cable? Or will a snowy 12" Zenith with tin-foiled rabbit ears be okay?

Do you need lobster and prime rib for dinner? Or will mac and cheese and a slice of fried bologna do?

Do you need a glass of Glenlivet single malt, or will a Pabst blue ribbon be enough?

Do you need a trio of sexy, hedonistic, wonton red-headed ladies in your bed? Or will toothless Gerta with the gout from up the street suffice?

Gerta, Honey, bring me another Pabst, while I adjust this dadburned tin foil again! What? Did you say macNcheese again tonight. Sounds scrumptious!

 

[fiddlefye]

Post 1000 here, whadda ya know? Hard to believe. I'd break out a celebratory beverage but I have to work today:tears:

This could maybe be a separate thread, but I'm wondering if anyone who has owned both an SL-1200 and a Denon DD table could tell me how they'd compare? I have a Denon DP-1200 which is the only DD table I've experienced personally and I'm curious.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Delihaus and all,

NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Company) technicians measured bearing friction on many tonearms, including the tonearm which comes stock on the Technics SL-1200 Mk II and 5. The tonearm bearing friction on the Mk II and 5 stock arm was as good as a SME 3009, 3012, III, and IV in performance. The Linn measured higher, the Rega measured higher and had noticeable bearing flutter on warped records. The Jelco was in SME territory. In my opinion, the Rega is a downgrade on a 1200. The EPA technology improvements did trickle down to the 1200 stock arms. Add the KAB damper and Cardas wiring and the arm is comparable to about any fine arm in quality. Those bearings are a work of art and the arm exudes precision. Especially astounding for the price.

 

[gumbercules]

man, i absolutely cannot wait till mine gets here

 

[HypnoToad]

I too find it hilarious when the so-called 'weak point of the arm' is regurgitated over and over, all without ANY supporting facts. The arm is beautiful, infinitely better constructed than the cheap Rega- there, I said it, the rega is cheaply made. What is costs retail is irrelevant. Oh yes, 25 years ago the 'casting' may have been a bit clever, but it certainly isn't well finished, the bearings are poor, the cueing, antiskate, arm clip and counterweight all look and feel like fisher-price stuff. There is no comparison with any half decent cartridge when it comes to tracking- the rega's bearings chatter and it cannot track a really warped record. The technics arm can, at 1 gram or less with a V15 III MR. I dumped my rega TT and arm ages ago, and as for our deluded friends at a certain english magazine that seem to be holding shares in a certain rega modification outfit- I laugh everytime I use one of my 1200s or my personal fav, the 1600mkII. Matsushita and the Japanese know how good the table was and is and the 'audiophiles' are finally realising that too. Pity they didn't realise 20 years ago when Technics, Yamaha, Micro etc had their really good stuff out there.

Makes me wonder why so many are against it then.

 

[SLM3Tech]

The 1200MK2, upon introduction, was a huge threat to every other turntable maker their was and they knew it. This was on the heals of some already great Technics turntables. Me thinks it's a case of marketing. How are you going to convince someone to buy "your" turntable as opposed to a 1200?? You have to convince people that the 1200 is a "radio station" turntable, a scratchers table and otherwise a piece of garbage... even if you have to just plain lie about it.

Thedelihaus, I'll take some pics of the other TT's; but, I'll probably start a new thread so as to keep this one on topic.

 

[thedelihaus]

Delihaus and all,

NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Company) technicians measured bearing friction on many tonearms, including the tonearm which comes stock on the Technics SL-1200 Mk II and 5. The tonearm bearing friction on the Mk II and 5 stock arm was as good as a SME 3009, 3012, III, and IV in performance...The EPA technology improvements did trickle down to the 1200 stock arms. Add the KAB damper and Cardas wiring and the arm is comparable to about any fine arm in quality. Those bearings are a work of art and the arm exudes precision. Especially astounding for the price.

Kent,

I'm in agreement that the Technics arm is very good stock, and modifying the arm, ripe for a few mods, will allow it to become a fantastic tone arm.

Maybe, or maybe not a "best", but still one fantastic performer.

A good thing about this arm is it also allows a no-fuss approach to setup, and- perhaps overkill- nonetheless I have recently fallen in love with the VTA on the fly.

I personally would love to own the EPA series of arms- 100, 250, 500.


Did they (the NRK- Norwegian Broadcasting Company) test the EPA 100/250/500 arms? How about my other love, the PUA 7 and PUA 9 from sony?

Makes me wonder why so many are against it then.

I don't think it's a bad arm at all- some describe it as a little lifeless- but maybe that's Technics' use of wiring choices?

Some claim of the need for arm dampening. Maybe if Technics started doing the arms in nitrided titanium or carbon charged aluminum, this would improve? Or as many have experimented with, shrink tubing and plumbers tape.

If the arm is such a strong performer, my thoughts are the arm- though still very nice- has this modicum of improvement possible by a few small changes- one of which the M5G addresses.

Lots of folk claim that a simple KAB damper and tone arm re-wire is a palpable, tangible improvement- and I also suspect an RCA cable swap is a godsend- the stockers perhaps

Plans were to originally have one with the SME 3009 arm (I have two SME arms here), one with a rega arm, one with a Technics stock arm, and one with a Sony PUA 7 arm.

Nothing against the Rega arm, and I may still do it just as a project but would most likely sell it, but I have become fond of the Technics EPA arm and Sony PUA arms, and find it a thrill that a $150 KAB damper and $30 to $100 (depending on brand) tone arm re-wire can extract such good performance from the stock arm.

 

[thedelihaus]

The 1200MK2, upon introduction, was a huge threat to every other turntable maker their was and they knew it. This was on the heals of some already great Technics turntables. Me thinks it's a case of marketing. How are you going to convince someone to buy "your" turntable as opposed to a 1200?? You have to convince people that the 1200 is a "radio station" turntable, a scratchers table and otherwise a piece of garbage... even if you have to just plain lie about it....

I know this is a big part of the rhetoric behind the belt-drive vs direct drive debate.


I prefer direct drive, at least for now, but I do not discount belt drives.

It would be a fresh breath of air if more people saw the benefits of both designs.

After all- it's not whether the table is belt drive or direct drive, but if it's designed and executed well.

There are plenty of excellent performers in both camps, due to excellent design aspects of both...

...as well as plenty of dogs, due to cost-cutting, and bean-counting.

...Thedelihaus, I'll take some pics of the other TT's; but, I'll probably start a new thread so as to keep this one on topic.

Thank you- I've taken a shine to the history of Technics tables and arms.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

delihaus,

NRK tested all the EPA series tonearms. The EPA 100 tested equal to the Technics SL-1200 MK II stock tonearm. The EPA 250 and 500 tested even better by slight margins. NRK didn't have any Sony tonearms to test. I'd be curious how they'd stack up performance wise. They have a superb reputation from people who's perspectives are similar to ours here.

 

[Tapehead47]

This thread is blowing my mind....I never realized how many Technics TT's there are! All I wanted was a good table that would reliably play my LPs and not need a bunch of maintenance. The SL1200 has always been on top of my list, it has been my dream TT ever since it's introduction back in the 70s. But I couldn't afford one in those days.

After using CD's for nearly 30 years I needed to get back to re-experience vinyl. I have about 500 LPs that I bought way back when. Wanted to record them to CD for posterity. Or MD. Anyway I've been enjoying the rites of using a Turntable again; the beautiful fit and finish of the SL1200Mk2, the adjustments of the arm (so easy!), cleaning the stylus, dusting the vinyl off, trying different cartridges, balancing the tonearm, cueing the record, etc. It's a ritual that I missed for years! One does not get that tactile experience with CDs....I grew up with vinyl in the 50's and 60's.

Believe me, I love CD's, especially on a night where I don't want to get up from the sweetspot and flip a record. Just load 5 or 6 musical choices into the changer and use the remote. It's almost too easy! No ritual to perform, no LP to clean, no adjustments to be made. Enjoyable but sterile.

My SL1200 sounds great to me with the Shure M97. The combo performs better than my old belt-drive Pioneer or Sansui (gave them away). Don't need no mods at all. It's a beautiful thing to me and for $250 bucks it's the table that will survive me.

Thanks for all the insight, guys! Delihaus, Kent, SLM3Tech, Hypno, Restorer, etal. Your knowledge of TT's boggles my mind.

Rick

 

[SLM3Tech]

After all- it's not whether the table is belt drive or direct drive, but if it's designed and executed well.

...couldn't have said that any better.

I've always admired the belt-drive LP12; another table for which there are numerous tweaks and upgrades... and a drool factor table for me. And there are, of course, other turntables that are just marvels artistically or technically. It just continues to irk me how many people ignore the obvious engineering and attention to detail that prefaced the 1200MK2's arrival. Like Kent said, when it comes to actual test results, the specs that "audiophiles" look for, are all there in spades. Wasn't it Stereophile that tested "brand x" and found that many ran slightly fast, contributing to it's more lively presentation? It may be "more lively"; but running faster than intended sure isn't accurate. Anything sounds more lively if you run it fast. MDF platters??? C'mon! Even the SL-BD22/21's didn't have MDF platters!!! I don't care what color it is... if it doesn't rotate a record at an accurate, stable speed... quietly... what good is it? The MK2's have been doing so for decades.

Denon, Thorens, many of the older (serious) tables IMHO seem to dance all over some many of today's "entry level audiophile" tables. If one just wants one of those entry level audiophile tables... fine, no foul; but, my ear is now deaf to those who would say the 1200MK2 (any many other Technics) don't make the grade.

If you wanna tell me my TT is a heap of crap... ya might want to have a Goldmund Reference, a Simon Yorke or other such table on hand... and then, let's have a look at the specs... and then, let's have a look a the price tag.