I'm guessin' NOT the Zilchified ones....
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The Advent Loudspeaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Your curve is a little flatter but the difference is subtle between the measurements. I dont think it is significant except as fuel for the Advent bashing groupthink that seems to dominate this board and the universal adulation you receive every time you grace us with another chart or pontification. I am just someone who appreciates the design of the original and listens to classical music as a primary enjoyment. I like the Advent and have enjoyed them for the last 30 years. I am by the way an audio profesional and have been listening to and repairing stereo gear for the last 30 years.
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Nobody's bashing anything. It's merely a different perspective I bring here, and the worst I've said about Advents is that they are O.K. speakers, but not deserving of the praise accorded them throughout this forum.
If you want to read the knock-down drag-out regarding speakers designed with concert hall coloration, it may be found in "The Kitchen" over on Classic Speaker Pages.
Again, none of this should in any way diminish anyone's enjoyment of what they like. Whether you or anyone else likes Advents or not does not go to what they ARE. As an audio professional, you should certainly have more than a half-baked recitation of the subjectivist mantra at hand.
This thread is about the speakers, not our preferences. Post YOUR Advent measurements, and we'll have something to discuss.... :yes:
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Damage
Super Member
Seems they're rather more excellent, uhmmm, "amended:"
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2434268#post2434268
That isn't the graph I was looking at. What I saw was a graph with a huge drop at 2kHz. I always thought there was a lack of detail (not as significant as other speakers) in the midrange, especially concerning guitars and layered guitars, in Large Advents.
anachrophile
New Member
Summarizing all this...one person's view.
I just worked my way through all this, having found the link on Classic Speaker Pages. Looks like no one has commented for awhile, so maybe I can weigh in on some of the points without offending anyone or taking too many hits. My own QuAdvent project (4 oddly stacked Smaller Advents sharing the air in a single, well-braced cabinet) has reached a new plateau (out of cash). This multi-year, seat-of-the-pants puttering enables me to comment semi-reasonably, though not with the quantitation displayed by Zilch and others. Maybe someday. There are a FEW measurements on the QuAdvent site: http://macro.lsu.edu/russo/QuAdvent/QuAdvent.htm
On stacking: as required by physics, there ARE huge phasing issues. In the QuAdvent "design" all the Advent tweeters are nearly the same distance to the ear. In ONE spot (+/- a few inches) everything is as wonderful as it can be with a tweeter that was deliberately designed to peter out at high frequencies (read old Advent literature, especially Kloss' rationale for making the NLA and extending its frequency response). In that ONE spot, the imaging is pretty decent by my estimation. Bear in mind that recording engineers do wild and crazy things (my neighbor and son both have this profession, at opposite ends of the musical spectrum). Also, live music does not always have amazing "imaging".
Should you (or anyone) stack? Well, it depends. If you want very smooth, robust midrange, and want to listen for critical details, then don't do it! If you want the speakers to sound like someone is playing the music in your room, then SOMETIMES you can get that effect (it is an EFFECT) by stacking. This is one reason why some people who care enough about sound to spend a lot of cash on it go with big planar speakers (Magneplanar, KLH9, various other big panels). I vaguely recall some old speaker made out of many dynamic elements in a planar array (a Bob Carver design?). Was surely a "festival of phasing complexity" (hope I quoted that right--great line!) but I'll bet it could give the impression of musicians in the room OK. On some music. If you like that kind of thing. My guess would be some old Rectilinears and Bozaks would do the same. The QuAdvent project was partly motivated out of being really annoyed with minimonitor+subwoofer sound (Mirage + VMPS). Technically, that sound was surely more correct than what I've got now...but it never sounded like musicians in the room. BTW, recording studios have BOTH: minimonitors to listen into the details and larger speakers to see how it all turned out and/or impress the client. Popular music is also auditioned in one or more vehicles and tested on really crappy speakers for listenability. Deal with it.
On biamping: yeah, works. Cheap to do these days. Prevents drivers from going where they ought not to. More people ought to try it. Won't cure all ills, but if the drivers are used in their linear range, why not? Some people say the extra electronics gets in the way. I can't be troubled to listen that hard. The QuAdvents are actually triamped when using their EPI tweeter. I can easily control the spaciousness of the sound by changing the x-over points.
Advent tweeter: It's really tempting to replace the Advent tweeters (Orange, original style design) with something that can run to even lower frequencies...but the QuAdvent is sort of a period piece featuring all-American drivers.
Advent woofer: pretty good, even by modern standards, for sealed box design. Some people say the smaller one has more distortion. Oh well.
On the horn solution: very interesting. Would love to hear how that sounds. I always thought horns got a bad rap by the "serious audiophile" crowd. But a few very good direct radiator drivers (with rear chambers to lower the resonance down to 600 Hz or so and good design to limit distortion) could be substituted for the Advent tweeter these days. Some of them are expensive. Who has tried this, especially paying attention to the details as Zilch did for the horns?
Old speakers vs. new speakers: At the same price point, adjusted for inflation, new is almost surely "better". It would be depressing if this were not true. But the old ones are good enough most of the time and a lot of fun. I like to ride around in old cars, too.
I just worked my way through all this, having found the link on Classic Speaker Pages. Looks like no one has commented for awhile, so maybe I can weigh in on some of the points without offending anyone or taking too many hits. My own QuAdvent project (4 oddly stacked Smaller Advents sharing the air in a single, well-braced cabinet) has reached a new plateau (out of cash). This multi-year, seat-of-the-pants puttering enables me to comment semi-reasonably, though not with the quantitation displayed by Zilch and others. Maybe someday. There are a FEW measurements on the QuAdvent site: http://macro.lsu.edu/russo/QuAdvent/QuAdvent.htm
On stacking: as required by physics, there ARE huge phasing issues. In the QuAdvent "design" all the Advent tweeters are nearly the same distance to the ear. In ONE spot (+/- a few inches) everything is as wonderful as it can be with a tweeter that was deliberately designed to peter out at high frequencies (read old Advent literature, especially Kloss' rationale for making the NLA and extending its frequency response). In that ONE spot, the imaging is pretty decent by my estimation. Bear in mind that recording engineers do wild and crazy things (my neighbor and son both have this profession, at opposite ends of the musical spectrum). Also, live music does not always have amazing "imaging".
Should you (or anyone) stack? Well, it depends. If you want very smooth, robust midrange, and want to listen for critical details, then don't do it! If you want the speakers to sound like someone is playing the music in your room, then SOMETIMES you can get that effect (it is an EFFECT) by stacking. This is one reason why some people who care enough about sound to spend a lot of cash on it go with big planar speakers (Magneplanar, KLH9, various other big panels). I vaguely recall some old speaker made out of many dynamic elements in a planar array (a Bob Carver design?). Was surely a "festival of phasing complexity" (hope I quoted that right--great line!) but I'll bet it could give the impression of musicians in the room OK. On some music. If you like that kind of thing. My guess would be some old Rectilinears and Bozaks would do the same. The QuAdvent project was partly motivated out of being really annoyed with minimonitor+subwoofer sound (Mirage + VMPS). Technically, that sound was surely more correct than what I've got now...but it never sounded like musicians in the room. BTW, recording studios have BOTH: minimonitors to listen into the details and larger speakers to see how it all turned out and/or impress the client. Popular music is also auditioned in one or more vehicles and tested on really crappy speakers for listenability. Deal with it.
On biamping: yeah, works. Cheap to do these days. Prevents drivers from going where they ought not to. More people ought to try it. Won't cure all ills, but if the drivers are used in their linear range, why not? Some people say the extra electronics gets in the way. I can't be troubled to listen that hard. The QuAdvents are actually triamped when using their EPI tweeter. I can easily control the spaciousness of the sound by changing the x-over points.
Advent tweeter: It's really tempting to replace the Advent tweeters (Orange, original style design) with something that can run to even lower frequencies...but the QuAdvent is sort of a period piece featuring all-American drivers.
Advent woofer: pretty good, even by modern standards, for sealed box design. Some people say the smaller one has more distortion. Oh well.
On the horn solution: very interesting. Would love to hear how that sounds. I always thought horns got a bad rap by the "serious audiophile" crowd. But a few very good direct radiator drivers (with rear chambers to lower the resonance down to 600 Hz or so and good design to limit distortion) could be substituted for the Advent tweeter these days. Some of them are expensive. Who has tried this, especially paying attention to the details as Zilch did for the horns?
Old speakers vs. new speakers: At the same price point, adjusted for inflation, new is almost surely "better". It would be depressing if this were not true. But the old ones are good enough most of the time and a lot of fun. I like to ride around in old cars, too.
I very much enjoyed your QuAdvent treatise, an enormously entertaining read, snoring old dogs and CSW6 marketing hoping no one is paying attention particularly capturing my fancy.
While I may give the appearance of projects being discrete and finite, in reality, everyting is serial and nothing ever finished. Each new bit of knowledge filters conceptually back through everything I've done, which from time to time warrants charging up the SawZall, thus sustaining the ongoing adventure.
You can be up and running for measurements with the free downloadable HOLMImpulse, a $46 Dayton measurement mic, and a phantom-powered mic preamp. Fun stuff -- do it.... :thmbsp:
Q: As student of his designs do you have insight as to what Kloss meant by "Octave-to-octave balance?"
While I may give the appearance of projects being discrete and finite, in reality, everyting is serial and nothing ever finished. Each new bit of knowledge filters conceptually back through everything I've done, which from time to time warrants charging up the SawZall, thus sustaining the ongoing adventure.
You can be up and running for measurements with the free downloadable HOLMImpulse, a $46 Dayton measurement mic, and a phantom-powered mic preamp. Fun stuff -- do it.... :thmbsp:
Q: As student of his designs do you have insight as to what Kloss meant by "Octave-to-octave balance?"
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anachrophile
New Member
Thanks for your comments. Yeah, I'll get into measurements eventually. When I do, I can do some of them in my son's studio, a very large and virtually anechoic chamber. Microphones will be no problem--he has them by the score--but software and time to learn to use it well will be.
Love the line about firing up the Sawzall. Not with the QuAdvents, though. The quarter-sawn oak is very pretty to old eyes. Sure, not rounded or sculpted in the style of modern speakers, but...
I really don't know what octave-to-octave balance meant to Kloss. More sales, probably! Someone on this site or Classic Speaker Pages must have known him. I'm impressed how flat you got your modified Advents! That has to qualify as octave-to-octave balance!
Cheers.
Love the line about firing up the Sawzall. Not with the QuAdvents, though. The quarter-sawn oak is very pretty to old eyes. Sure, not rounded or sculpted in the style of modern speakers, but...
I really don't know what octave-to-octave balance meant to Kloss. More sales, probably! Someone on this site or Classic Speaker Pages must have known him. I'm impressed how flat you got your modified Advents! That has to qualify as octave-to-octave balance!
Cheers.
SpruceMoose
Super Member
that's just wrong. bet it sounds good though!
...and with the grill reattached no one will be the wiser--until they hear them rocking the house!
Was there ever a conclusion as to whether they sounded different in the A/B?
Crossovers in these The Advent Loudspeaker - Utility are Rev2, 16/8/3. The nonpolar electrolytic caps removed measure 17.68 and 9.02 uF for 16 and 8 uF respectively.
I replaced them with a 16 uF and 3.3 || 4.7 uF Solens. Did it make a difference in the measurements? Perhaps 1/2 - 1 whit worth of one:
Did I do it right? Here's the three switch adjustment levels:
Compare to the original measurements on this unit here:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=94449&d=1213056841
Does it sound different? We'll see in the A/B. I've got one stock and one recapped, now.... :yes:
Not that I could hear.
Now, two years later, they are still here in the same status. I suppose I should do that again before recapping the second one and giving them back to the owner.
[Suffice it to suggest that we have departed significantly from the original design in the interim.... ]
Now, two years later, they are still here in the same status. I suppose I should do that again before recapping the second one and giving them back to the owner.
[Suffice it to suggest that we have departed significantly from the original design in the interim....
]
keithpgdrb
Super Member
just read through the entire thread, which I've been meaning to do for a while. I'll definitely do this at some point. it sounds like a great project.
I have one question, that may have been beaten to death, but I could not find an exact answer. Regarding the damping material. fiberglass, I get it. but since they dont sell it by the pound, what is the recommended value, and length that goes into each speaker. I have read that people have used R13, R15, and R19 fiberglass. I have also read that someone said to use 10 feet of fiberglass (16" wide/ 3.5" thick) PER speaker. is this right? 10 feet has to weigh more than 2 pounds.
I've been searching on this for hours, as I want to finish up my ola advents this week. this is my last step, till the econowave of course. What should I buy at home depot tomorrow?
I have one question, that may have been beaten to death, but I could not find an exact answer. Regarding the damping material. fiberglass, I get it. but since they dont sell it by the pound, what is the recommended value, and length that goes into each speaker. I have read that people have used R13, R15, and R19 fiberglass. I have also read that someone said to use 10 feet of fiberglass (16" wide/ 3.5" thick) PER speaker. is this right? 10 feet has to weigh more than 2 pounds.
I've been searching on this for hours, as I want to finish up my ola advents this week. this is my last step, till the econowave of course. What should I buy at home depot tomorrow?
Buy R13 or R15 fiberglass. Home Depot sells the pink stuff with paper backing in a roll. I line the back and four sides with it after removing the paper and cutting to size, then fill in behind the tweeter. Don't block the rear basket openings of the woofer.
Some stores have a smaller "Handi-Pak" of similar.
If your Advents came with fiberglass instead of foam, put it back, or weigh it and replace with an equal amount of new.... :yes:
Some stores have a smaller "Handi-Pak" of similar.
If your Advents came with fiberglass instead of foam, put it back, or weigh it and replace with an equal amount of new.... :yes:
As a general policy, I oppose gratuitous intervention, but there's not much downside to recapping.
[Re-doping vintage surrounds is another matter, however, which should be approached with greater caution.... :scratch2: ]
keithpgdrb
Super Member
Thank you Zilch. you are a gentleman, as well as a scholar. I appreciate the clear advice.
spkrdtr
spkrfixer
I think this is the thread at CSP you were looking for;
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=2895&hl=
