The best Japanese SLT turntables. A comparison.

[Pio1980]

Hi Professor;
What I mean is that my understanding is that the SGs put out line level, therefore the PS/network could be fed into an attenuator, thence to the power amp thus dispensing with any adverse contributions from a redundant preamp line gain stage. If i get an opportunity to acquire an example I will pursue it, unlike last summer when I let one pass. The present experimental set-up is running a Denon DL-110 thru an ESP PO-6 phono stage, passive input selector/attenuator and straight into the power amp with no line level gain stage. The best gain stage is no gain stage if it is uunecessary, second best is a gain stage as close to sonically transparent as a straight wire as possible.

 

[Pio1980]

One difference I've noted between the import TTs I've seen and old 'classics' like Rec-O-Cut, Russco, and the like is the substantially larger size of the spindle shaft & bearings with pumper grooves and oil reservoirs in the older units.

 

[theophile]

Pio posted some photos on another thread(the Nak Dragon TT thread)of the PX-1(which had an arm which ran on rails).

Who thought of it first?

 

[Pio1980]

Pio posted some photos on another thread(the Nak Dragon TT thread)of the PX-1(which had an arm which ran on rails).

Who thought of it first?

Good question, here's some candidates to ponder;
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttrabco.html

 

[drtool]

I love this thread...gives me hope I will get my PS-X800 rollin again.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

Vintage domestic turntable main bearings versus Japanese main bearings

One difference I've noted between the import TTs I've seen and old 'classics' like Rec-O-Cut, Russco, and the like is the substantially larger size of the spindle shaft & bearings with pumper grooves and oil reservoirs in the older units.

Hi Pio1980,

If memory serves me right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the Kenwood KD-700. KD-750, KD-770, KD-850, and KD-990 all had respectable diameter herringbone pattern lubrication grooves cut high up into the main bearing spindle to form a radial hydraulic lock condition that drastically reduced the chance of bearing wall contact in the radial direction.

Kenwood should be recognized for their contribution to Japanese main bearing technology.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Professor Bizzt]

Sony PS-X800

I love this thread...gives me hope I will get my PS-X800 rollin again.

Yup, that's quite the sexy turntable.

Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Pio1980]

I ran a Kenwood KD-550 for a few year with it's own arm and both versions of the Black Widow, never had occasion to pull the rotor so was ignorant of the details of it's bearings. Other than the TOTL "Statement" tables, I wonder how many others did the spindle thus.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

I ran a Kenwood KD-550 for a few year with it's own arm and both versions of the Black Widow, never had occasion to pull the rotor so was ignorant of the details of it's bearings. Other than the TOTL "Statement" tables, I wonder how many others did the spindle thus.

Hi Pio1980,

I am almost positive the Kenwood KD-500, KD-550, KD-600, or KD-650 did not use the herringbone pattern bearing design, only (if memory serves me correctly) the models I have already listed.

I am not aware of any other DD tables, regardless of manufacturer, that used this bearing design.


P.S. I really need to get the Japanese SLT turntable design comparison list that I promised earlier on completed soon, I have just been too busy lately to work on it. This would hopefully get us on-topic again, as ideally, this thread should be useful to those confused about which Japanese SLT turntable to invest in.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Triophile]

"If memory serves me right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the Kenwood KD-700, KD-750, KD-770, KD-850, and KD-990 all had respectable diameter herringbone pattern lubrication grooves..."

This was an approach I found interesting too. I've got a pic of this somewhere from a number of years ago.

Interesting points you made about plinth rigidity and mass. Sounds very similar in a number of key respects to what Kenwood's engineers were trying to achieve with the L-07D's plinth (though of course that turntable came as standard with a pivoted arm). I've always wanted to get my ET-2 onto my L-07D; just never had the time.

I agree completely with your comments on the need to make sure any complex, vintage turntable is fully overhauled. I collect SL-7s, SL-10s and SL-15s (though I realise their arms are semi-pivoted and T4P), and while they may have a degree of tolerance to maladjustments and aging problems, they sound a lot better when properly sorted.

Cheers, Jon.

 

[Pio1980]

Jon, am interested in your take and tips on the smaller Technics TOTL close-&-play LTs if you care to start another thread pertaining.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

Plinths, state of tune, and tonearm design

Interesting points you made about plinth rigidity and mass. Sounds very similar in a number of key respects to what Kenwood's engineers were trying to achieve with the L-07D's plinth (though of course that turntable came as standard with a pivoted arm). I've always wanted to get my ET-2 onto my L-07D; just never had the time.

I agree completely with your comments on the need to make sure any complex, vintage turntable is fully overhauled. I collect SL-7s, SL-10s and SL-15s (though I realise their arms are semi-pivoted and T4P), and while they may have a degree of tolerance to maladjustments and aging problems, they sound a lot better when properly sorted.

Cheers, Jon.

Hi Jon,

We hear a lot of talk about damping in the audio industry, but what about rigidity? If we have a plinth that is so rigid it cannot sympathetically vibrate due to incoming energy from the tonearm and the environment, is that not better than a less rigid structure that allows sympathetic vibration but damps it quickly?

Of course these ideals (like I have already stated) are very difficult to impossible to achieve in a real world turntable plinth for a reasonable cost. Perhaps this will change in the future though. Having said this, the next best thing IMHO is to make it as rigid as possible, but damp it extremely well so that energy is killed off ASAP.

There are those that would say I am wrong about this because that would destroy the "life" of turntable's sound making it dull and lifeless. I suggest that too many audiophiles are gravitating to "lively" or "euphonic" sounding equipment and are not understanding that components exhibiting this "life" are actually substandard in their energy management characteristics. I agree that there exist certain "lively" sounding music reproduction components that sound good, but good and accurate are two different things and the two should never be confused.

Although this thread is supposed to be about 1/2" mount SLT turntables and not T4P SLT turntables; my thoughts are, that although I have a lot of respect for Panasonic (Technics), I am a little uneasy with the idea of mounting a tonearm into a dustcover.

The dustcover is anything but an inert, rigid, and damped structure. Of course this is not the ideal structure to mount a tonearm to. The fact that the dust cover is also of relatively large surface area acting like a microphone diaphragm does not help things either. To be fair though, Technics did manufacture at least one non-dustcover mounted T4P design called the SL-M3.

Air bearing SLT tonearm designs are great for maintaining almost perfect 0 tracking error across the whole record, but the compliance effects of the thin air film bearing concerns me. The super low friction is also commendable on an air bearing design, but how low is low enough? Finally, what about the noise of air escaping the gap. That is an issue that has had some noteworthy attention devoted to, but is this not an issue that is of serious importance when the design goal of the tonearm is to be as utterly dead quiet as it can possibly be?

Jon, you mention the term "semi-pivoted" here in regard to tonearms. This should be discussed further. SLT servo drive tonearms are used in all of the turntables listed in the first post of this thread. They all use what might be called a "semi-pivoted" tonearm. The tonearm pipe pivots in the horizontal plane on low-friction horizontal bearings like any normal pivoting tonearm does, but the difference is that the arm pipe is connected to a sensitive tracking error sensor that tells the carriage drive electronics to move the carriage so as to maintain near 0 tracking error.

The models listed in the first post will all have slightly different tracking error accuracies, but I think it is safe to say that, assuming there are no problems, the tracking error is respectably low. There are those that have said in other posts on other sites that SLT tonearms cause the stylus to constantly drag on the outer groove wall. This condition will be no more likely in a properly functioning SLT servo tonearm than it would on any top quality pivoting tonearm and therefore this accusation is patently false.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Triophile]

Although this thread is supposed to be about 1/2" mount SLT turntables and not T4P SLT turntables; my thoughts are, that although I have a lot of respect for Panasonic (Technics), I am a little uneasy with the idea of mounting a tonearm into a dustcover.

Certainly, from the sole perspective of sound quality without compromise, this is the case. It must, however, be borne in mid that absolute sound quality was not the prime goal of the team who designed the SL-15, SL-10 and SL-7.

I have a scan (somewhere!) from a Japanese preview of the SL-10 which describes the designers' aims as being to produce a piece of hi-fi equipment "so easy to use even children and women can operate it without difficulty" (ah, the 1970s! You have to admire their total non-committment to equality!), which also looks good and sounds good. I believe the designers fulfilled the goals they set themselves admirably; it's just that their goals may not have been ours in terms of sound quality. That said, with careful set-up and servicing, these decks can still sound surprisingly good, if not up to the standards of some of the larger SLTs.

Air bearing SLT tonearm designs are great for maintaining almost perfect 0 tracking error across the whole record, but the compliance effects of the thin air film bearing concerns me. The super low friction is also commendable on an air bearing design, but how low is low enough? Finally, what about the noise of air escaping the gap.

The ET2, AFAIR, was offered with two different manifolds - standard, and high-pressure (and two different arm tubes - aluminium and magnesium). From old reviews, I remember reading that there was an audible difference, with the high-pressure manifold being preferred for its more solid, dynamic sound. The noise of the air escaping..? Who knows? Ideally we need a wealthy audiophile with a large collection of such arms to measure the differences for us As you say, compromises, compromises...

Jon, you mention the term "semi-pivoted" here in regard to tonearms. This should be discussed further. SLT servo drive tonearms are used in all of the turntables listed in the first post of this thread. They all use what might be called a "semi-pivoted" tonearm.

Indeed. I think it's worth reminding ourselves that that is the case, and that there are "fixed" arms (like the ET2) out there. Talking of compromises, what about potential subtle effects from the arm's movement in bursts as the sensors correct tracking error, low-level arm-motor noise breakthrough, contamination of power rails due to increased circuit complexity, etc, etc? ;-) It's a can of worms, but an interesting one nonetheless.

I'll start a fresh post relating purely to the Technics SLTs later tonight, time permitting.

Cheers, Jon.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

SLT servo tonearm motor drive noise

Talking of compromises, what about potential subtle effects from the arm's movement in bursts as the sensors correct tracking error, low-level arm-motor noise breakthrough, contamination of power rails due to increased circuit complexity, etc, etc? ;-) It's a can of worms, but an interesting one nonetheless.
Cheers, Jon.

Hello Jon,

Your comments are very accurate and we are all fortunate that you are contributing to this thread. What I quote here from you is also very accurate, but perhaps I could add an insignificant morsel to your observations.

A properly functioning SLT servo tonearm's carriage should travel very freely on its rails or rail. If there is anything wrong with it in this regard it will exhibit stiction "burst" effects like what you mention. These bursts will cause the cartridge's cantilever to deflect and unwanted signal will be generated.

Of course the quality of the carriage bearings, the torque of the motor drive, and the precision of the drive design (both mechanical and electrical) will all have an effect on any detrimental "burst" type movement. The Pioneer PL-L800 gets a mediocre score in this regard due to its sliding V-block "bearing" design. But again, the PL-L800 can, when precisely maintained, perform acceptably well, just not admirably well.

The only way to compare the mechanical motor drive noise breakthrough into the signal between different SLT turntable models would be to setup a very careful test among several of these tables. That has probably never been done, but I would be surprised if the Pioneer PL-L1, PL-L5, PL-L1000, PL-L1000A, Phase Linear 8000 Series Two, and Phase Linear 8000A would not rank extremely high in this regard. Second best would probably be the Yamaha PX-1, PX-2 and PX-3.

Pioneer SLT turntables use a regulated DC controlled current to move the arm's carriage. Ideally, there will be no electrical ripple or electrical noise on the feed to the stator drive coil that moves the carriage, only gently varying DC voltage. A gently varying DC drive to the stator coil is incapable of inducing mechanical noise into the tonearm due to its very low frequency. This characteristic, coupled with properly functioning carriage bearings, make the Pioneers a top contender for those concerned about mechanical noise breakthrough into the signal.

Like anything in audio, or life for that matter, you have to choose what approach looks best to you first and then you make sure the device you choose is running tip-top. It's kind of like choosing a race car platform that you think will win the race. Another person may choose a different platform because they don't agree with your philosophies. But in the end, both race car builders will have to make sure that their vehicles are tuned with meticulous care for each car to perform to expectations.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Daniel Walte]

Thanks Professor Bizzt for the belt info i have already purchased new belts just not going to tear the old 1000 open again untill the belt snaps as i stated it is shimmed tight and works good as new like it is now. I could have bought a thorens with a black widow arm for a couple hundred dollars more when i purchased the pioneer 1000a in germany many years ago. I was very interested in that graphite arm that both turntables had. i decided that the SLT design with the graphite arm would be a better way to go tho. I wish i would have bought that thorens also and had both of them now.

 

[Professor Bizzt]

PL-L1000A cuing belt & comparison against other "elite" turntables

Thanks Professor Bizzt for the belt info i have already purchased new belts just not going to tear the old 1000 open again untill the belt snaps as i stated it is shimmed tight and works good as new like it is now. I could have bought a thorens with a black widow arm for a couple hundred dollars more when i purchased the pioneer 1000a in germany many years ago. I was very interested in that graphite arm that both turntables had. i decided that the SLT design with the graphite arm would be a better way to go tho. I wish i would have bought that thorens also and had both of them now.

Hi Daniel,
Sorry for what follows, but my rambling on is for the benefit of those still learning about Pioneer SLT turntables.

The belt you have been dealing with is only the up/down cuing drive belt. It performs no other function and is the only drive belt in a Pioneer PL-L1000, PL-L1000A, PL-L5, Phase Linear 8000 Series Two, or Phase Linear 8000A. The Pioneer PL-L1 probably has only one belt as well.

You mention that you should have purchased the Thorens and Infinity Black Widow combo in Germany several moons ago.

Of course I can't say this is how you feel, but I suspect there are more than a few audiophiles that are influenced (putting it mildly) by other audiophiles that have more expensive gear made by some of the "elite" names in the industry.

I can only say this: Make sure your PL-L1000A is tuned up very well and that you are thorough and savvy with its setup including a quality cartridge and decent platform for your turntable to sit on. Then have your audiophile friends bring their "elite" components over for a shootout and see what happens. Hopefully they will be honest enough to put aside their bias due to their large investments and meaningful and educational results will be the result.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt

 

[Triophile]

Offshoot thread on Technics SLTs

As requested , I've written a little blurb about my experiences with the Technics SL-7, SL-10 and SL-15. Hope they're of use.

Cheers, Jon.

 

[Aerobat]

I just made a deal on a PL-L1000, which I hope to use as my main table going forward. I'll post pics tonight assuming the deal goes through. I'll be looking for setup tips!

 

[DCinDC]

To the Prof.

I bought a PL-1000a new in Europe. It would not keep the tonearm perpendicular to the rails. I returned it, not knowing why it did that. Others in my unit experienced the same. Since then I've considered it a turd. If you could speak to that I would be curious.

I now own a Marantz SLT. Do you have any experience with those?
edit: Pic is not of mine, just added it for reference.

 

[Pio1980]

Not to upstage the prof, he will likely appear to set things straight.
Set-up is critical to the PL-L1000, arm carriage glide rails must be clean and absolutely level. It's possible that these were a defective run, I've heard of no problems like this with them. Past and present owners seem to like them and have no problems.

The Marantz SLT-12 was legendary for many reasons aside from being the first intergrated SLT table marketed.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/marantz-SLT-12.html
It was a very ambitious effort that required stringent set-up and maintainance to work at all, many were returned for failure to work properly whether the fault of the TT or the owner. One poster in another forum was the set-up and maintainance specialist for a Marantz dealer and stated that he had no trouble making and keeping them working for their owners. Others remember them as over-elaborate Rube Goldberg-ish frustrating disappointments.