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The best phono preamp under $1000 (aka the Hagerman Bugle upgrade thread)

saltytown said:
the choice for the middle opamp is largely system dependent. The 49723 was a total bust in my system.
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It might be just that. I think his bugle has more than a few changes from what your factory bugle mc has and might be the reason why you don’t have similar results. I know that mine changes slightly with speaker placement and toe angle. I haven’t tried mine yet with a Muses02 in the middle U3 position but I would like to try soon.

At least for now you have seen improvement with the power supply and the u4 opamp swap.
 
saltytown said:
No, I just have to jiggle it, which is annoying. I'll either splice the end from the Hagerman supplied PS onto the Jameco or find an aftermarket jack that has a better fit.
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Try rotating it about 90 degrees also instead of jiggling it. It helped me with mine. I ended up soldering my power jack on the board and it eliminated the problem. They are not as robust I guess as they used to be?
 
saltytown said:
Wee update: I managed to get a 1358 installed without frying it by wearing a little wrist strip attached to ground at an outlet. All I can say is Oranda nailed it. The sound is way less compressed and more 3D. Next up is the middle position opamp. This can wait. I'm digging the sound of the MC with the upgraded power supply and the 1358.
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Glad the new chip did the trick and many thanks for the nice comment!

saltytown said:
Yes, I started over with a new 1358. At some point I'd like to drop in a silver mica cap.
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Yeah, it's hard to decipher which is the 10nF cap based on the stock photo. If you were really determined, you could use a voltmeter and see which cap is common to R10 (332 Ohms) on one side and ground on the other. Kemet will often print the value at the top of the cap as well. That said, I agree that you have to look at the available space and know that between the power supply and opamp upgrades you are getting a huge part of the upgrade benefit.
 
saltytown said:
Well, a little voice in my head compelled me to pull the middle opamp and replace it with a 49723MAX. As Oranda implied the choice for the middle opamp is largely system dependent. The 49723 was a total bust in my system. The lead vocals became recessed in the mix and backing vocals took on a homogeneous quality. With the 4562 in place I could pick out individual harmony singers.The bass became more bloated.
Back went the 4562 and the sun is shining again.
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Interesting. Brings a few thoughts to mind. The first being that I am not sure how different the the MAX and MA versions of the LME49723 sound. I've heard several MAs but have not tried the MAX. Theoretically they spec the same so they should sound the same. That said, the LME49720 and the LM4562 are supposedly the exact same opamp and both differ only by a slightly lower voltage max compared to the LME49860, yet all three opamps sound different to my ears.

In comparing the LM4562 to the LME49723, the LME49723 is the budget part with lower specs so in a way it doesn't surprise me to hear that you like the sound with the LM4562. Also your comment about the lead vocal being recessed into the mix is something I recall noticing with the LME49723. My complaint with the LM4562 is that it sounds a bit dynamically constrained/tonally muted. The LME49723MA seemed to share the detail of the LM4562 without the loss of vibrance, so it's what I've been using for now.

Oh, you mentioned increased bass bloat with the LM4562. I would assume that's a bad thing, no? Appreciate you sharing your opinions.
 
The barrel on the Jameco plug is about 1mm longer than the one supplied by Hagerman. The OD of the OEM plug's plastic sleeve fits exactly into the hole drilled into the metal case. The Jameco flops around a bit since there is nothing to stabilize it.
I bought both versions of 49723, both the MA and MAX since they were less than $2 each. There may be a sound quality difference between the 2 versions but I can't imagine it is night and day. Bloated bass is not desirable for me. I like to hear the pitch of the bass notes rather than an amorphous, bloated sound.
The last swap I'll try is a 2210 in the middle position. Soldering SOIC chips to an adapter is quite challenging but I managed to do it.
 
Well I'll be doggoned. My curiosity got the better of me and I soldered up an MA to an adapter to give it a spin in the middle slot. I can hear what Oranda was referring to as a more natural response. 4562 in the middle has detail aplenty but gets a bit fizzy when multiple singers are singing together. This quality started to bug me. The MA gives up a bit of hyper detail compared to the 4562. But the 49723MA is more musical. I've been a performing musician for 55 years (!) and I know how live music sounds. The MA has me wanting to leave in place for awhile, unlike the MAX.
So, one more feather in your cap, Señor Oranda.
Another question: do opamps benefit from burn in?
 
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saltytown said:
But the 49723MA is more musical. I've been a performing musician for 55 years (!) and I know how live music sounds. The MA has me wanting to leave in place for awhile, unlike the MAX.
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Love this. Crazy, isn't it? Thanks for reporting and I'm very glad curiosity got the best of you. :biggrin:
saltytown said:
Another question: do opamps benefit from burn in?
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Great question. I used to believe that there is no need for burn-in with opamps. I think for the most part this still true, where brand new opamps have about 98-99% of their final sound after reaching operating temperature. However, running them in for another 6-12 hours will help them smooth out and lose a bit of edge/crunch you sometimes hear when you first pop them in.
 
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I don't suppose there's an opamp that is between the 4562 and 49723MA? I like the taught quality of the basses on the 4562. But, as I said, the trebles get a bit fizzy (meaning distorted in a hash-y way). The 49723 could stand a bit more separation but the vocal quality is very smooth. I'm tempted to try a Sparkos but there is more financial risk with that option. But, if Sparkos brings so much to the party $80 is not a deal breaker.
 
saltytown said:
I don't suppose there's an opamp that is between the 4562 and 49723MA?
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Not that I am aware of.

saltytown said:
The 49723 could stand a bit more separation but the vocal quality is very smooth.
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I agree, and it's hard to argue with the price to performance ratio of the 49723MA.

saltytown said:
I'm tempted to try a Sparkos but there is more financial risk with that option. But, if Sparkos brings so much to the party $80 is not a deal breaker.
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If you do let us know. While the overriding sentiment is very positive, there are a few reviews that have made me think twice given the price. I thought the price of the MUSES02 I tested was extravagant and the Sparkos is nearly double.
 
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I've been playing with OPA1656's for about 2 years now. Great opamp for MM (very low Input current noise density), and very low input bias current so arguably better suited to play without input capacitance.
THD+N is also an order of a magnitude lower.
You can get them on alie on a dip8 board for around €5/piece delivered.
 
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oranda said:
If you do let us know. While the overriding sentiment is very positive, there are a few reviews that have made me think twice given the price. I though price of the MUSES02 I tested was extravagant and the Sparkos is nearly double.
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May I ask, what did you think of the MUSES02, and what position were you trying it in? That is the bipolar input, right?
 
saltytown said:
Curious if you tried OPA1656
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No, haven't tired that one. I primarily focused on bipolar opamps as that's what the stock opamps are and the few FET opamps I tried didn't sound as good to my ears as the bipolars. The OPA2210 also has better voltage noise specs but I agree in that there is a lot of praise for the OPA1656.
 
cgallery said:
May I ask, what did you think of the MUSES02, and what position were you trying it in? That is the bipolar input, right?
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U3 and U4. Yes, bipolar. Great opamp and maybe my favorite if you're upgrading a DAC.

In the Bugle, I found the MUSES02 reproduces voices and similarly registered instruments exceptionally well. However, with the LME49723MA and LT1358 in U3 and U4 respectively, the music stays composed and resolved even through complex passages. With the MUSES02 in either position, things fall apart a bit as things get demanding to the point where you begin to lose a sense of the music.
 
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Many of the participants in this thread appear to have a background in electrical engineering, which is great. My background is as a musician. I have no idea what the 3 opamps in the Bugle actually do, or which opamps are interchangeable with each other. I only know I can trust my ears.
Since following Oranda's suggestions my vinyl playback has improved by leaps and bounds. The changes brought about by simple opamp swaps in the Bugle are dramatic. The first and third opamps are sounding great. I'm hoping to find an opamp for the middle position that snaps everything into focus.
I appreciate the feedback and ideas that are freely given on this site. And thankfully this thread is absent the naysayers who tell you with utmost certainty that what you are hearing is wrong!
 
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