desertrat748
Super Member
Yes. I have some feedback that the carbon might provide better midrange response but at the expense of some grittiness? I want to try the metal films first and see what is what.
The best phono preamp under $1000 (aka the Hagerman Bugle upgrade thread)
- Thread starter oranda
- Start date
oranda
Active Member
The metal oxide REYs sound more precise and linear. The REXs have a more lifelike midrange, but are a little more splashy on top. Factor in the longer life and tighter tolerance and I give the edge to the REYs, but both are well made, high quality resistors.
desertrat748
Super Member
Hey Oranda, I hope you’re doing well with your Bugle builds. Any chance that you have updated your Bugle with any further mods?
desertrat748
Super Member
Can’t wait to see your results with your Cornet build!
I have enjoyed reading this thread. Rather than starting from scratch and building a Bugle 3 from the PCB I opted to buy a new Bugle MC. I figured the parts swaps documented by oranda would carry over to the MC. First up was the Jameco power supply which brought an immediate improvement. The sound became more weighty and cut down on splashy cymbals. Vocals became clearer with excellent micro inflections. I thought I was off to a good start. Next up was swapping an LT1358 in the final opamp position. Jim has changed the numbering of components in the schematic of MC as compared to the 3. The MC pilot light only flickered momentarily and then nothing, no light or sound. I was scared I fried the MC somehow but when I reinstalled the 4562 all was well. The schematic of the MC looks nearly identical to the 3 and both have a 24v power supply.
I am new to opamp rolling but have lots of experience with a soldering iron and swapping out components in my gear. I was careful to align the scallop edge of the 1358 in the same orientation as the 4562.
I would appreciate any comments as to what the issue might be.
I am new to opamp rolling but have lots of experience with a soldering iron and swapping out components in my gear. I was careful to align the scallop edge of the 1358 in the same orientation as the 4562.
I would appreciate any comments as to what the issue might be.
Mouser, yes.
desertrat748
Super Member
Did you make sure you aligned the number one pin up right? Can you take a pic or two of the board of the MC?
Are they surface mounted on the board? I didn’t understand about the soldering iron but assuming that you were able to use the fine tip to solder it down. If so, it would probably be difficult to get it right the first time around depending upon your experience.
I would recommend making sure you are grounded well before handling the chip. It can be damaged by static electricity. Have experienced this before in EE labs in college as we built various boards.
Are they surface mounted on the board? I didn’t understand about the soldering iron but assuming that you were able to use the fine tip to solder it down. If so, it would probably be difficult to get it right the first time around depending upon your experience.
I would recommend making sure you are grounded well before handling the chip. It can be damaged by static electricity. Have experienced this before in EE labs in college as we built various boards.
oranda
Active Member
Welcome to the group and awesome that you joined in! Glad you were able to hear an immediate benefit from the power supply upgrade. I think you will find similar improvements as you work your way through the mods. Getting a prefabbed Bugle is a great way to speed the process along (and get the latest changes that Jim has worked into his design.) Looking forward to your observations!
oranda
Active Member
Greats questions... these are the exact things I though of first. Mouser is a fine source.
There is the chance that the opamp is toast, either by being mishandled, mismounted, or just not produced correctly. That said, while opamps need a high level of care, they are not tissue paper fragile.
The 1358 has a pretty obvious notch (and white line) that lines up with the notch in the adapters that Jim uses so I would guess that you probably have the correct orientation, but please check this. My next guess is that one of the pins on the opamp was not seated correctly in the adapter. With the Bugle completely unplugged, can you mount the opamp (making sure it's pushed down completely) and grab a magnifying glass and check each of the 8 pins and to make sure they are correctly socketed? You could also grab a voltmeter and Jim's schematic and check the continuity from the opamp pin to the lead of the next component. For example, pin 1 should have continuity to R13 and R14.
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Thanks for your replies. I mentioned the soldering iron as my "street cred", meaning if I can handle a soldering iron I can handle popping in opamps. No soldering was used by me in this operation.
The 1358 I used is the full sized version with the 8 pins already in place. I opted for this version to avoid using an adapter. Am I correct in assuming that the scallop in one edge denotes the #1 side? I installed the replacement with the scallop in the same location as the original. And yes, I am sure all 8 pins were installed correctly and fully bottomed out.
I was not particularly careful in handling the opamp in terms of grounding myself. I applied the same level of care when reinserting the 4562 with no problems arising.
I believe Jim has a pic of a completed MC board on his site. I don't want to overstep any proprietary guidelines by posting a pic if it is not meant for the public.
The 1358 I used is the full sized version with the 8 pins already in place. I opted for this version to avoid using an adapter. Am I correct in assuming that the scallop in one edge denotes the #1 side? I installed the replacement with the scallop in the same location as the original. And yes, I am sure all 8 pins were installed correctly and fully bottomed out.
I was not particularly careful in handling the opamp in terms of grounding myself. I applied the same level of care when reinserting the 4562 with no problems arising.
I believe Jim has a pic of a completed MC board on his site. I don't want to overstep any proprietary guidelines by posting a pic if it is not meant for the public.
oranda
Active Member
Yup, the larger DIP8 package is the one I am using.
Yes, the scalloped side (which also has the white line) denotes the side with pin 1. It should be in the exact same orientation as the 4562 it's replacing.
If the opamp is installed correctly and replacing it with the stock 4562 fixes any issues, then the only think I can conclude is that the 1358 is bad. The 1358 is a direct drop-in for the 4562, so it should be plug and play.
If you don't already have them, a chip puller (insulated extractor) and $5 static wrist strap are good tools to have to make sure you don't accidentally zap the opamp you are working on.
I think he meant for you to post a pic with your opamps installed so we can see if there is anything obvious awry.
Thanks for responding. I can hear the potential in the Bugle MC. I would like to clear up some of the congestion that was mentioned (by you, I believe).
I can guarantee the 1358 was installed correctly. The 4562 is back in place and working correctly so it would seem a picture is probably not necessary.
Oranda, is there a chip puller and grounding strap you can recommend? All the chip pullers I saw were for use on the shorter side of the opamp that has no pins. The MC has capacitors hard against the shorter side which renders this style of chip puller useless.
I'm glad to know the 1358 is a drop in replacement. I'm starting to think either I damaged the 1358 with improper handling or it was a dud from the get go.
I can guarantee the 1358 was installed correctly. The 4562 is back in place and working correctly so it would seem a picture is probably not necessary.
Oranda, is there a chip puller and grounding strap you can recommend? All the chip pullers I saw were for use on the shorter side of the opamp that has no pins. The MC has capacitors hard against the shorter side which renders this style of chip puller useless.
I'm glad to know the 1358 is a drop in replacement. I'm starting to think either I damaged the 1358 with improper handling or it was a dud from the get go.
knotscott
Super Member
Hang in there....you'll get it! I "sloldered" my first attempts at mounting an OPA2210 to an adapter, and finally ended up doing what oranda had suggested in the first, which was buying them premounted. Live and learn.
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oranda
Active Member
Most pullers works best from the ends (where there are no pins) but you can try one of the ones that look like this:
Just be careful as the gripers are narrow so its easy to have the opamp come out uneven and bend some of the pins back. Any inexpensive wrist strap will get the job done.
Yes, seems like the most likely situation, but a minor setback in the grand scheme of things.
desertrat748
Super Member
Sallytown, I have the exact same pair and I just used them to roll out some opamps on my latest bugle3 build. I was just about to take a picture of me using them.
Oranda beat me to it and has described exactly what happens with them if you pull them out a little off center. But I have the same issue with pulling the opamps as the bugle3 pcb has 8 more resistors and the 3 micro switches per channel to change loading and gain options.
This makes the opamps very close to the decoupling caps and it’s extremely hard to use the other type of pullers that look like tweezers w broad tips. Those work better to pull out the opamps without bending the legs as the opamp is centered better or more evenly on the pull.
You can easily push the legs back into alignment if you bend them. I use a pencil with the eraser end and something straight like the edge of a wooden box (I use the case for my bugle).
For grounding if you have carpet flooring in your work area, definitely use a grounding strap. If you have concrete floors you can do what I do and take off your shoes and go barefoot to get rid of any charge.
Carpet is the most common way to pick up charge; especially when wearing tennis shoes. Pets with long hair is another way to pick up static electricity.
Good luck. Oranda is spot on with his advice.
desertrat748
Super Member
Success with the latest build using a Bugle3 pcb board and all of the recommended improvements from Oranda. Thanks for all of your help and support Oranda and his testing to get the most out of Jim Hagerman’s excellent design.
I am hoping Oranda will share some of his latest thoughts on what opamps he might have been trying out.
But in the meantime, you will notice that I have used Takman REY 1/4 watt resistors throughout except for the 2 pairs of Dale which are the correct values that are unavailable in the Takman.
I have the Silver Mica caps (the blue Charcroft Audio) in C5 and a pair of Amtrans amcg metalized polypropylene caps in c4 as per Oranda’s recommendations. He is spot on with his recommendations and I no longer feel the need to test them out to determine if I hear the same things that he describes. In C6 I did have a pair of Mundorf MCap ZN capacitors that barely fit. I had an issue with a cold solder joint nearby and had to pull one of them out. So I left the ZN in the right channel and went with another Amtrans in the left.
I know that is a little unorthodox but I am able to hear the difference between the Amstrans and Mundorf ZN easily. So far I really think the ZNs will need a little time to break in and wanted to test them out before I decide what to go with. I also have a pair of Auricap XOs to test at some point in C6.
A quick listen and all I can say for now is that it’s definitely different from my previous build. A lot more sparkle in the hf and added detail. No matter what opamps I roll so far it has the added detail w hf sparkle.
Depending upon the opamp choice and position, bass can be very good or too much when using the TI opa1612a. I have tried using the Muses02 in U2 and the opa1612a in u4 but I didn’t like the results. Too much hf when it was busy and the bass was just overkill.
I think I will go back and try 3 op2210 with all of the different permutations and the new build. Happy so far. Good to see others trying out some upgrades. This is one heck of a phono preamp for the money.
I am hoping Oranda will share some of his latest thoughts on what opamps he might have been trying out.
But in the meantime, you will notice that I have used Takman REY 1/4 watt resistors throughout except for the 2 pairs of Dale which are the correct values that are unavailable in the Takman.
I have the Silver Mica caps (the blue Charcroft Audio) in C5 and a pair of Amtrans amcg metalized polypropylene caps in c4 as per Oranda’s recommendations. He is spot on with his recommendations and I no longer feel the need to test them out to determine if I hear the same things that he describes. In C6 I did have a pair of Mundorf MCap ZN capacitors that barely fit. I had an issue with a cold solder joint nearby and had to pull one of them out. So I left the ZN in the right channel and went with another Amtrans in the left.
I know that is a little unorthodox but I am able to hear the difference between the Amstrans and Mundorf ZN easily. So far I really think the ZNs will need a little time to break in and wanted to test them out before I decide what to go with. I also have a pair of Auricap XOs to test at some point in C6.
A quick listen and all I can say for now is that it’s definitely different from my previous build. A lot more sparkle in the hf and added detail. No matter what opamps I roll so far it has the added detail w hf sparkle.
Depending upon the opamp choice and position, bass can be very good or too much when using the TI opa1612a. I have tried using the Muses02 in U2 and the opa1612a in u4 but I didn’t like the results. Too much hf when it was busy and the bass was just overkill.
I think I will go back and try 3 op2210 with all of the different permutations and the new build. Happy so far. Good to see others trying out some upgrades. This is one heck of a phono preamp for the money.
oranda
Active Member
Congrats on your 2nd build!
Interesting. I stayed away from caps that forced me to use unusually long leads, BUT I am rather interested to know what your thoughts are comparing the Amtrans to the Mundorf caps. Maybe give it a day or so but please let us know if you have a preference.