The horror of mono in stereo demonstrated

[tubewade]

@bfotk

Can you tell us the details of these two clips? Did you record them or were they found elsewhere? Are both the same cartridge? Was any processing used to make any change to the sound outside of normal RIAA equalisation?

 

[RobRoy]

Evidently we're definitely not all born equal or raised evenly ear wise... For example this should explain the too often sterile and volatile discussions between those whose preferences for "higher end" cables claim to ear those differences where others can only scream "snake oil". So we not only have different earbuds, but capacities and sensitivities as well. Then there is (wo)men's worse handicap for any tolerant approach in understanding of the yet unknown ; pride & assertiveness in his/her phono gear and intelligence.

Not that this is your case evidently, but for you to say that it's not really bothering on headphones then should be even less noticeable on speakers is something I can't agree with. These "noises" even through speakers can 1) bring distortions in the higher frequencies 2) act like a "veil" not allowing a good to better "focus" on the music 3) and finally "hide" the depth in sound that should allow to create a 2-D or even 3-D imagery in sound. My vintage MONO records do already suffer from wear to inflict them improper groove retrieval.

On my old lap top fitted with powered speakers and a sub (both given to me), so nothing fancy, I instantly heard the differences between both sound clips presented here. Admit-ably I am a MONO guy that knows what he wants. MONO grove retrieval is very important to me since I do do play and listen to my beloved vintage MONO 45rpm records. I do understand the sound technicians who needs to hear with headphones for a better "visibility" of the details, as it is their job. Still I truly prefer the music that fills the room when the acoustic allows to get "that". My playback sound is of the neutral, clear and dynamic kind so I do get a lot of details out of my speakers. And there those noises are a nuisance.

It took me ages to gather my Ri-Fi phono gear as it is today to get that right-fidelity playback. If some can live with a MONO switch in their chain, good for them. As far as I can remember, that is long ago, such switch on the amps I heard took off all dynamic from the signal as well. Maybe such switch in some preamps are better at that... So I embarked on a quest in the technical understanding of what is required for the right phono gear to do justice to my beloved MONO 45rpm's. Since I have learn to work-out, build and tweak my phono chain on and around my MONO cartridge. This not to impair as much as possible the cartridge micro volt signal and on the contrary in how to "improve" it's rendition in musicality.

Dude, I wear hearing aids.

 

[timmy.timmy]

Dude, I wear hearing aids.

I should have not forgot to mention the ear 'impaired' in my introduction to the ear's differences. Thanks for your correction

 

[gusten]

Yes the v-shaped groove is a smart design. As @tubewade pointed out pure vertical motion is maximum stereo with one coil coupled out of phase; so the info is in principle cancelled out if the channels are summed. Pure lateral motion is in principle mono; this can be read with both a mono or a stereo cartridge, as one coil is out of phase.

Of course much info on a mono record isn´t in phase or out of phase; but the info will appear further back in the mono channel; if a stereo cartridge is summed.

 

[for_p1]

Unless you have a dedicated mono cartridge, your vinyl playback system needs a switch somewhere to combine left and right channels into one.

Here's why.

mono vinyl played as if stereo (YUK): http://bit.ly/monoinstereo
mono vinyl played in mono (AHH): http://bit.ly/monoinmono

If your cartridge is aligned properly, you won't notice a difference between "stereo" playback and combining channels. Actually if combining channels changes sound - it points to poor alignment. The only case when dedicated mono cartridge really wins - when record is warped or noisy due to excessive groove wear.

 

[DavidTT]

I own several old mono records including an Elvis Christmas record. I listen to them every now and then with my stereo rig and cartridge and while I know that in theory I'm not hearing them "correctly" they sound great to me.

 

[timmy.timmy]

I own several old mono records including an Elvis Christmas record. I listen to them every now and then with my stereo rig and cartridge and while I know that in theory I'm not hearing them "correctly" they sound great to me.

So there is great and there's even GREATER ! In simple terms it really works like this.

 

[Final_Baton]

I never quite understood why so many recordings of 1 instrument recorded with 1 mic are done in stereo...

I did not pay much attention to the mono switch when I was buying an amp, luckily I picked one who had it.

What about styluses and cartridges? There seems to be more than one option when it comes to needles.

In rock and metal, you need to have one guitar hard panned to the left and the other hard panned to the right, to have a wide sound(massive sound). There's just no other way around it, all the big producers/mixers talk about this. Some people blend it a bit by having the reverb of each guitar panned to the other side, or by having the guitars play a little bit in the opposite speaker (so say a 80% left, 20% right, and vice versa blend) but as a general rule of thumb it is done like I said in first part. Exception is solos up the center channel almost always. that helps them jump out from the mix by contrast with the rythm guitars' hard pan. Like they soar all of a sudden

 

[twiiii]

Any of us that are over 65 know that you need to cancel the vertical component a stereo cartridge can pick up off a mono recording. Then too you want to use only one speaker as the destructive interference between two speakers trying to reproduce a mono signal creates very annoying anomalies in playback. That why Paul kilpsch had a center channel speaker for his systems using speakers in corners to focus the soloist that could drift between the speakers due to the inconsistencies created trying to reproduce a mono signal on a stereo LP. A PHANTOM center soloist is still a phantom whether on an LP, CD or DVD. You need that center speakers most of the time.

 

[gadget73]

Just a mention here, but late 60s onward "mono" records are really just stereo records with the same signal in both channels. Once upon a time they were actually cut differently, early mono being a purely lateral recording where stereo records have both vertical and lateral movement. If you've ever noticed on early stereo records it will tell you specifically to play only on a stereo cartridge for that reason. The old monos just don't allow vertical movement and it will start to plow the peaks off after a while. You'd have the same trouble using an old mono cartridge on a "modern" mono record. My one honest to goodness mono cartridge is an old GE RPX. I've never run it on a microgroove record because I don't own any of the proper type. It does 78 duty only.


I expect modern mono cartridges are just the stereo cartridge with the coils wired together internally. You should be able to get the same effect with jumpers on the back of the cartridge, or simply throwing the mono switch on the preamp.


and lets just not even talk about stereo reprocessed from mono recordings. Thats just something that ought to have never happened.

 

[gnuyork]

gnuyork: Try 'phones or stream to a "real" audio lash up. What happens in proper mono-ized mono is that uncorrelated noise gets folded into the centered music signal and thereby is not attended to...rather than taking on a life of its own in the left and right channels.

OK yes, just tried with headphones. The difference is apparent now, just as you describe. Thanks.

 

[gadget73]

had a chance to listen to it. Quieter in mono, but it sounds like either the record is tired or its mistracking a bit.

 

[Chip Chester]

(snip) ..There are too many songs dating back to the early days of Stereo that are unlistenable b/c they treated stereo like a gimmicky special effect. For example: Several Beatles songs have the guitar coming entirely from one speaker and the voice entirely from the other. John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" has (can't recall the track) the Sax coming completely from one channel and the drums from the other. ..These songs are way more realistic sounding in Mono. (snip)

These examples are more of a creative/distribution choice, rather than an attempt to present a realistic stereo sound stage. They sound gimmicky now that we've been exposed to nice stereo imaging, but like any new technology dropped in an artist's lap, they'll try many options as the tech is adopted. (Case in point: most Quadraphonic recordings I've heard.) Many jazz recording of the time also have unusual 'panning' choices. The whole stereo mix/centered, mono soloist is also 'instrumental' in ensuring stereo/mono compatibility in radio stations.

I think inter-channel panning took a little time to come on the scene, too. Early two-channel mixers had left/right/mono channel choices, but no "just a little to the left of center" choice. That came later. (Ex. https://reverb.com/item/1636392-ampex-mx-35-vintage-tube-4-channel-mic-line-mixer-preamp-mx-10)

Wacky panning is interesting and (now) dated. It's a tribute to the mixers that, when played in mono, the balance still sounds pretty good.

 

[danj]

Playback with the mono cartridge is a tad cleaner sounding to my ears but nothing earth-shattering.