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The Mighty Bogen MO-200A

With no tubes. About 44-45 lbs.
Are you sure? They look heavier than that.
Could be worse, Mac 240 is ca 56lbs, MC275 67lbs, H-K Cit-II is probably about the same.
The MC75s at 44 lbs are much easier to (carefully) sling around than the combo chassis.
 
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Are the 8417 basically costly near-unobtainium like the formerly uiquitous large sweep tubes used en masse in heavy audio and RF use?
 
Are you making a stereo amp? I have one of these and plan to do something like Mica did. I heard that beast, and it had hugenormous balls. At least the 8417s are still "buyable". you just have to write the check.
 
mech -- I've read the info on baking tubes, but frankly have never tried it. While the concept does make sense, it would be hard for me to imagine that baking the one tube could save it. It was hard enough just to snap the pic I presented of its performance, as the power output of that tube sank very fast from the moment the drive signal is applied.

Based on the otherwise completely normal appearance of that tube, I would strongly suspect that it was damaged (arced) somewhere along the line. I can't tell for sure, but it appears that the original wiring to one output tube has been worked on, so this, plus the obvious blowout in the power supply area may explain the historical failure of this particular tube, and the amp in general.

It is also interesting that the strongest tube of the bunch is a Bogen labeled tube, while the worst was a garden variety GE labeled tube -- obviously therefore already a replacement tube, while the Bogen tube was almost certainly an original one.

As for taking out the transformers, stripping down the chassis, repainting, etc., etc., etc., there are an awful lot of folks who do a wonderful job of that kind of work here on AK, but that is not my particular goal here or forte even. My goal is to first go through the steps necessary to place the unit back in best possible as designed operating condition, from which a baseline of performance can be developed. From that information, the unit can then be analyzed for what modifications would best be suitable --within what the unit basically is -- for converted use to stereo operation, as used in a home environment. Once that basic effort is all developed, proven, installed, and documented, then any personal preferences for the unit regarding appearance or boutique components can be addressed by the owner, while keeping the modifications developed in place. My goal then is to place the unit into best possible performance condition for its new intended use environment. Along the way, the wiring, and any components of concern will certainly be addressed in working towards the stated goal.

rpampt --in a well designed amplifier, output tubes that otherwise start out as very similar well made devices will in fact wear out fairly evenly throughout their lifetimes. Like a tube curve, they may not wear identically initially, or at the near end of their life point. But throughout their useful service life, they will generally wear out at an even rate. However, circuit design can affect how output tubes wear considerably. Most typically, turn on/turn off burps and thumps presented to the output stage are classcially non-symmetrical, and very hard on the tubes when they happen -- which can cause otherwise equal tubes to wear at vastly different rates.

I have often seen units where the power supply was upgraded with massive amounts of capacitance, which may be good for the perceived sonic experience, but all too often can alter the charge/discharge rate of the power supply, causing the amplifier to now produce the burps and thumps, where none were present before. The discussion of such equipment often turns quite quickly into questions as to why the output tubes are wearing out so fast now......

Dave
 
Dave,

Thanks for this .. and I want that tube tester .. and a pony ..

Seriously thanks for taking one of these on and I look forward to your findings.

Frannie
 
Oh this is going to be great! I am sitting here with anticipation like a kid watching new episodes of Star Trek!

Tubes: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship DcGillespie. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new circuits, to seek out new ideas and new designs, to boldly go where no man has gone before.
 
Could 7591/7868 be subbed as they just as easy to drive I do believe? Sure less power but low $ , but maybe B+ is too high! Maybe sell those 8417 off to collectors!

Anyway I think it will surprise you in a positive way sonically!

Keep up the great work!
 
Could 7591/7868 be subbed as they just as easy to drive I do believe? Sure less power but low $ , but maybe B+ is too high! Maybe sell those 8417 off to collectors!

Anyway I think it will surprise you in a positive way sonically!

Keep up the great work!

I got one of these and a pair of 100s within the span of a month and went on what I thought would be a costly and difficult tube search. I had plenty gathered up in a weeks time. I don't think they are all that tough to find. I do like your 7591 idea though, it's not like there aren't a couple watts to spare. I wonder if Micah chose the EL34 / KT77 due to it's high voltage capabilities (800 I think), or cost (I think they are cheaper than 7591s new or old stock). I've just heard way too much good stuff about the 8417s, so I have to try them in at least one of the two projects.
 
The OPT could ultimately work with PPP 7591s, but the B+ would certainly have to be carefully looked at. It runs about 660 volts in these babies.......

Dave
 
The Back Eight Plus Drivers

The remaining eight output tubes were tested, with all tubes testing GOOD. This batch produced the strongest tube of the whole bunch (103.8% of ANPO), and the weakest of the 15 good tubes (86.7% of ANPO). If you (obviously) throw out the bad one, and then throw out the single highest and lowest performing tubes from the 15 good tubes, then the remaining 13 tubes averaged 97.5% of ANPO, which is excellent.

However, this last batch also produced three tubes requiring notably more negative control grid voltage to produce the target 50 ma of quiescent current draw in the PO tube tester. Therefore, these tubes clearly have the potential to run hot in an amplifier like this Bogen, where the negative control grid voltage is not adjustable -- or at least hotter than the other tubes in this amplifier.

Still, out of the 15 good tubes, eight tubes were able to be mated up that allow for no more than a 10% match variation between the best and worst tube in the bunch, based on cumulative variations of BOTH required negative control grid voltage, AND power output delivered. Within each category, the negative control grid voltage had a variation 4.8%, while power output varied 5.1% between the best and worst performing tubes. This is a very good match considering the small pool of tubes to work from, and likely approached the match Bogen required from its vendor for this amplifier. They should certainly allow the 200A to show off its stuff when asked to.

Finally, the driver tubes were tested in my Gm tester for characteristic compliance. Unlike conventional Gm testers, this tester tests a DUT according to the conditions published by RCA and others for their tubes. Therefore, from the RCA RC-30 Receiving Tube Manual, with 250 volts on the plate, and the grid bias voltage adjusted for the plate current given, 7247 tubes should produce a Gm of 1600 and 2200 micromhos in Unit 1 and Unit 2 respectively.

The tubes provided are RCA labeled 12DW7s, which are direct replacements for the 7247, and produced 1675 and 1700 micromhos for Unit 1, and 2100 and 2175 micromhos for Unit 2 respectively in my tester.

Because this tester also tests under very tightly regulated conditions for plate, grid, signal drive, and heater voltage, the tolerance for acceptability is much tighter than with conventional Gm testers. In this tester, the English scale is such that any tube that can produce 90% or greater of the published Gm is GOOD. Any tube that produces a Gm of < 90%, but at least 80% of published value is considered as WEAK, while any tube that produces < 80% of published Gm is considered as BAD. Both sections of both driver tubes tested well into, and even over the published values for their sections. Remember that a Gm test is testing a characteristic of a tube, and from that then, condition is extrapolated. Gm testing is particularly appropriate for testing Med Mu small signal tubes (Unit 2 of the 7247), and is good for High Mu tubes as well (Unit 1).

Pics include:

1. Those that made the final cut. The eight tubes are arranged in matched quads going across, with best pairs matched up within the quad. The discard pile is on the right. The driver tubes were mated with the output tubes for each amplifier based on phase inverter section condition, versus output tube drive voltage need.

This overall effort has produced a set of tubes that should allow both amplifiers to produce well matched performance between them, and also allow the Bogen overall to perform to the best of its capabilities.

2. Driver tubes under the microscope. Panel meters indicate B+, heater, and grid bias voltage levels, as well as plate current, and Gm.

With this step of the effort now complete -- and with a successful outcome as well -- attention will now focus on the unit itself, getting it ready ultimately for base line performance testing. It is unknown how long it has been since this unit saw active duty, or even simply had power applied, so it will be treated as if it was before the creation of mud.

More as it becomes available.....

Dave
 

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Hey Dave, not saying you will but you may find some useful info:

Here in Bricktop's thread: (he's a pretty thorough an smart guy) :thmbsp:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140121


That's the one Keg, Micah's recipe is incredible. Even the most complicated classical is no sweat for that brute. I have a couple Micah built Heaths, and he does some wonderful lead dress as well as crazy attention to detail. One of the best I'd say. :yes:
 
Dave, in the pairings, was there any specific brand pairs that seemed to naturally occur or was it pretty random?

Don't know what other brands you have besides Bogen and GE.

I believe the tube was first produced by Sylvania. Some sources indicate Philips (nee Sylvania) made them to the end, and GE may have made some later in the early 90's. (see Quicksilver website). RCA and Westinghouse rebranded the Sylvania's for sale.
 
Nice. I like bogen. Got 3 different monoblocks. One being a DB-20, gave by my father about 35 years ago. I remember him saying that these were very good amplifier, and indeed. I used it as a guitar amplifier for about a decade. I still have it, stored along with the 2 others acquired later, a CHA33 and CHB100 (100W 4X 7868 tubes). Good luck in your project :-)
 
I have many times thought about snagging a pair of those amps, they always seem to me to have what it would take for a tube setup for a few of my hard to drive speakers. I sure hope that the owner of these wants you to find the best out of them as a single mono block rather than a stereo amp. I would need them as a pair of mono's for a few of my speakers. Thanks for going to the extra work of documenting this. I don't doubt that it is quite a bit of extra time and work for you to go out of your way and document this and post photo's, and I just want to thank you for going out of your way to do this for all of us.
 
Ken -- Thanks for the kind words -- I'm happy to do it.

Mech -- All tubes were branded as either Sylvania, Bogen/Sylvania, or GE, but all were of the exact same tooling, with all undoubtedly being produced by Sylvania. Within the entire group, the Bogen/Sylvania tubes typically returned the higher power output levels, and were slightly more consistent in required negative control grid voltage. I attribute that to a spec that Bogen likely had with the vendor, resulting in the tubes with their name on them being some of the creme of the crop.

As for the Bricktop thread, I have studied his work thoroughly, but for the purposes of this effort, it still left some unanswered questions:

1. What is the actual power bandwidth of the Bogen's transformers? Distortion measurements provided by Bricktop on his modification were all made at 1 kHz, although he made a passing comment that 20 Hz crossover distortion began as early as 20 watts power output with his modification. Also, the 1 kHz distortion performance of the initial front end design of his modification produced higher THD readings at 20 watts power output, than Bogen specified at 200 watts. The second effort on the front end lowered that distortion somewhat, while no figures were provided for the third and final front end effort.

2. What is the working primary impedance of the Bogen's OPTs, and were there alternate output connections that could provide a better 8 ohm impedance match? This information speaks to just what tubes would operate best with these transformers if alternate output tubes are investigated. Again, this information was not provided or discussed in the Bricktop thread.

None of this is meant as ANY criticism towards his efforts, but merely facts I sowed together from information he provided on his modification in his thread, versus questions I still have for the purposes of my efforts that remain unanswered. The request on the amp I have in front of me is if it can improve on the performance produced by two Dynaco MK IIIs, so the whole design/modification approach is entirely different with my project, from that of Bricktops. To answer the questions presented to me, I simply need information that has yet to be determined or published to my knowledge. Therefore, I don't look at my effort as any kind of competition to Bricktop's, but rather, taking the amp down a different road than he did.

The power supply wiring in this unit is a mess as the pics showed, but it does work. The power supply caps formed up rather quickly, with basic tests showing that with a little work, the unit should be capable of baseline testing in fairly short order. I hope to start that process tomorrow.

Dave
 
Hey Dave I in no way meant what he did and what you are doing are the same
and that he already did everything you need/want to do, just he had Some info.
And yes we all know by now you will be thorough and want to do your own work.

But if we follow that whole thread he did many revisions, even use different taps
to try different feedback options and driver circuit arrangements on his amp build.
(again it was for info in case you hadn't seen it, not any competitive angle).. :)

Also he does have some bandwidth numbers in this post..
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1591186&postcount=57

Just figured if you hadn't seen it there might be something there not seen elsewhere.

Cheers... ;)
I will be following along with interest....
 
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Great thread thus far. It certainly would be very useful to have a sticky with output transformer parameter data. As long as the testing methods were consistent or at least defined, it would help to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
 
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