The 'warmth' of vinyl.

[SBinLilRock]

I too love that "warm" sound, that slight prominence of mid bass, and I stress "slight", as it is almost not there.

The caveat it that there can be no loss of detail, nor can there be any bass bloat, as both of these qualities will suffer my ears tremendously.

As far as needles and carts go, I find myself particularly attracted to the Pickering XSV with the D-3000 needle. Simply superb.

Noise is minimized, while that detailed yet warm sound comes through.

Cheers

Agree on the Pickering. I am on my second one. They are pretty hard to find now. I found a new old stock one a couple months back. It has a really nice sound.

 

[grottyash]

I agree with this. That is at least how I interpret the term "warm sound".

Like stated previously, the M97xE meets this warm definition but can also be perceived as dulled. Depends on the person and their likes.

I like the sound of vinyl over CDs mainly because CDs tend to make me tired. I get fatigued easily listening to digital formats. I also like the bigger soundstage that I hear with vinyl over digital.

Certainly, but as DR T says, this is distortion. Distortion is generally defined as any variation away from flat, such as a boost in mids or a rolling off of treble.

 

[vinyl1]

I invite everyone to read this 13-year-old article from Stereophile:

http://www.stereophile.com/features/282/index.html

In particular:

"Yet when I downconverted the data to 44.1kHz to prepare the CD masters, I was disconcerted to hear in level-matched comparisons that the high-sample-rate original was better, in that it sounded more natural and, paradoxically, had a cleaner, better-defined bass register. I used a dCS 972 digital-to-digital converter for the downsampling, and, as shown in Stereophile's February 1999 review of this unit, the 972 is measurably transparent in this divide-by-two downconversion, other than discarding the signal content above 22.05kHz."

So perhaps if you want good bass, you need frequencies in the 20-40 KHz range?

In my own experience, the only digital that can really rival vinyl is a direct, unfiltered double-DSD rip of an analogue master tape. PCM seems to destroy a lot of the natural qualities of music.

 

[crossram]

What I find is that when higher quality analogg gear is put into play there is an increase in transparency, a lowering of the noise floor, and this leads to improved inner detail and resolution. The overy coloration of "warmth" decreases and everything moves closer to what live music can feel like...hopefully what is captured in the recording. Or it exposes the multi track recording as a creation of the studio.

Great analog and great digital actually come closer in presentation.....moving closer to real music. So in the analog world there is less and less of this overt warmth to the sound. But analog and digital do sound fundamentally different, and a good table set up has a coherency to the souhd that defines its nature. Much of it seems to be that "timing" thing mentioned by the PRAT kind of people.

Regards
Mister Pig

Exactly.

A few nights ago, I asked my "golden eared" wife to listen to a comparison of vinyl and CD versions of 'I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry' from the audiophile classic, 'Cowboy Junkies - The Trinity Sessions'. Table was Thorens TD-147 with van den Hul MC Two HOMC and CDP was Ayre CX-7eMP, both front ends at about $3k retail.

The vinyl was first. Immediately after switching to the CDP, she exclaimed, "It sounds totally different. The first one was so cohesive, everything was 'together'. The sound was 'full'. With this one (CDP), there are holes between the instruments and it sounds less involving."

I think that what she was describing was a difference in coherency due to improved harmonic presentation from the TT that simply wasn't there with the CDP, but not a perception of additional 'warmth' per say.

As Mr Pig states above, as you move up the quality chain in both formats, the differences between the two formats become less about tonal 'distortions' and more about differences in presentation and resolution.

 

[Dr Tinear]

I invite everyone to read this 13-year-old [Emphasis added] article from Stereophile: [Link and excerpt snipped for brevity]

Are you implying that D/A converter technology has not improved in the last 13 years? If so, I beg to differ. What was state-of-the-art converter hardware in 1999 is obsolete converter hardware today.

In my own experience, the only digital that can really rival vinyl is a direct, unfiltered double-DSD rip of an analogue master tape. PCM seems to destroy a lot of the natural qualities of music.

My experience doesn't match yours. When I listen to vinyl, even on a high-quality front end, I hear colorations that are not there in live music. Digital is not perfect, but great digital has fewer colorations than great analog IMO. I'm a weekend warrior musician, so I get to hear live acoustic music from the performer's perspective at least once a week. It's great fun and a great way to keep my ears calibrated to the sound of live vs. recorded music.

 

[jimreeves]

FWIW(not much, since such threads rarely get us anywhere), I prefer detail and air to warmth in my system. I get enough warmth from my speakers, don't need extra from my vinyl rig. I like the description that porcine fellow gave earlier (not clear what 'overy coloration' is though :scratch2.

I am grateful to this forum and Felix for describing what they like about the M97XE and the Grados, so I could steer away from them in my quest. :thmbsp:

 

[gusten]

For me any 'warmth' is just a SQ that is lacking in some area, or several areas.
It can be a lower midrange boost, but mostly it´s distortion caused by vibrations. It can be arm resonances, plinth resonances or others, but getting rid of vibrations opens up for a different sound, smoother and at the same time higher resolution, much more right.
gusten

 

[catman]

G'day all, when I upgraded my old 1980's NAD 5420 CD olayer to the new NAD C 515BEE the one thing that really impressed me was its 'warmth', compared to the old NAD 5420.

I love the NAD C 515BEE for this reason. I consider it very much a positive, similar to the best of 'warm' vinyl sound. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[asterion]

FWIW(not much, since such threads rarely get us anywhere), I prefer detail and air to warmth in my system. I get enough warmth from my speakers, don't need extra from my vinyl rig. I like the description that porcine fellow gave earlier (not clear what 'overy coloration' is though :scratch2.

I am grateful to this forum and Felix for describing what they like about the M97XE and the Grados, so I could steer away from them in my quest. :thmbsp:

Probably a slip 'o da finger and was intended to be Overt Coloration?

 

[dumptruck]

The vinyl was first. Immediately after switching to the CDP, she exclaimed, "It sounds totally different. The first one was so cohesive, everything was 'together'. The sound was 'full'. With this one (CDP), there are holes between the instruments and it sounds less involving."

I think that what she was describing was a difference in coherency due to improved harmonic presentation from the TT that simply wasn't there with the CDP, but not a perception of additional 'warmth' per say.

I really doubt it. These are different masters. In theory, the vinyl would be the original plus added compression, reduced stereo separation, the lowest bass filtered out, some phase shifts done to prevent tracking problems... In practice, it's never so logical and the CD one can be much worse. Point is, they aren't the same record. If you had access to a digital copy of the vinyl master, that might make for an interesting listening comparison.

 

[catman]

G'day all, I don't agree that 'warmth' represents 'distortion' at all!

Perhaps subtle frequency response shaping, but definitely not distortion, in fact often the opposite. Indeed it is my personal observation that low overall distortion can often be 'perceived' as dull/boring/warm taking my cue from live unplugged musical performance. Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[hesson11]

I look for total accuracy. The 2M Black is the only MM cart I have ever heard that can make a harpsichord sound like it is in the room in front of me.

But how do we really know what is "accurate" and what is not. I believe most will say "accuracy" is brighter/cooler/colder sounding than the "warmth" we usually use to describe something that is "musical."

But I wonder whether a warmer balance might really more accurate. As Robert E. Greene points out (regonaudio.com), most speakers, as designed, create a fairly substantial suckout in the lower midrange/upper bass due to the effect of floor cancellations. So perhaps warmer-balance components actually fill in this "floor dip" to create a flatter, more "accurate" sound.

Maybe?
-Bob

 

[dumptruck]

I think that's a good point Bob. A big dip somewhere in the 150-600Hz region is more common than not.

 

[catman]

G'day all, certainly my experience of listening to live music in a good acoustic venue, is one of 'warmth' :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.

 

[gusten]

But how do we really know what is "accurate" and what is not. I believe most will say "accuracy" is brighter/cooler/colder sounding than the "warmth" we usually use to describe something that is "musical."

But I wonder whether a warmer balance might really more accurate. As Robert E. Greene points out (regonaudio.com), most speakers, as designed, create a fairly substantial suckout in the lower midrange/upper bass due to the effect of floor cancellations. So perhaps warmer-balance components actually fill in this "floor dip" to create a flatter, more "accurate" sound.

Maybe?
-Bob

'Accurate' ´can maybe mean 'like the mastertape', which ought to be substantially more 'musical' than what we can achieve at our homes.
gusten

 

[crossram]

I really doubt it. These are different masters. In theory, the vinyl would be the original plus added compression, reduced stereo separation, the lowest bass filtered out, some phase shifts done to prevent tracking problems... In practice, it's never so logical and the CD one can be much worse. Point is, they aren't the same record. If you had access to a digital copy of the vinyl master, that might make for an interesting listening comparison.

dumptruck, your "theory" is incorrect. The facts are that both the CD and LP are from the same DIGITAL R-DAT recording using a single Calrec Ambisonic microphone. Both were mastered and edited DIGITALLY by Peter Moore at MDI in 1988. I think that makes it a reasonably valid comparison of the sonic differences between vinyl and digital PLAYBACK.

 

[gusten]

dumptruck, your "theory" is incorrect. The facts are that both the CD and LP are from the same DIGITAL R-DAT recording using a single Calrec Ambisonic microphone. Both were mastered and edited DIGITALLY by Peter Moore at MDI in 1988. I think that makes it a valid comparison of the sonic differences between vinyl and digital PLAYBACK.

It´s certainly not a general comparison. What it at best can mean is with the components You used Your wife thought something. Secondly what is on the CD and the LP is not the same, what dumptruck said.
gusten

 

[dumptruck]

If the same final master was used directly for the vinyl and the CD, one of the formats got screwed over. More likely, someone made adjustments for each format. Even if not, the record mfg. would probably have applied some standard compression/limiting/etc. with the RIAA curve.

 

[bluesky]

Vinyl (analog) is human and warm. It's real. True sound...as in...TRUE RECORDED SOUND.

I love Ortofon carts. To me they just sound 'right'. Right as in Real. Right as rain. Just an Ortofon guy.


I have 600 CDs but don't really like the sound of digital. Digital sounds stark and cold, lifeless, it's computer generated. Sounds ok, but not real or honest. Absolutely not inviting. But really convient and easily transportable! Digital is here to stay.

Digital sounds like 'computers singing'. Analog sounds like humans singing.

2 different formats - 2 different sounds. That's it.

Get a better DAC? Why? Why try to make digital sound like analog, or anything, or something...it's digital.

 

[slippers-on]

100% agree.

I look for total accuracy. The 2M Black is the only MM cart I have ever heard that can make a harpsichord sound like it is in the room in front of me. The Kontrapunkt B runs it very close but never quite gets there.
If that is "ruthlessly forensic" then I am all for it :yes:

Just last night I put on Pinball Wizard by the Who and the reality of the intro just made me involuntarily laugh out loud.

If it's real enough to be emotional I don't care if you call it clinical, warm, or whatever.

What is your supporting gear around your 2M Black?

And I agree with you...others can call it what they want, but If there is one thing I hate...its a sterile sounding system. I once was at a guys house who had a $100,000 2 channel system. The guy had some of the top gear out there...even had some cables that cost more than a modest 2 channel rig. The guy even had a very nice Korg Key board connected to the 2 channel system so he could play along with a Bob James CD...hitting note for note as he and Bob played together. The thing could go so loud that I could not hear my buddy sitting right next to me as we listen to this supper high power system. Great sound stage...front to back depth...great air and separation in instruments...I mean that system was hitting hard and true to the music! Close your eyes and you are there! The guy said it took a while to build that system, and that he built the system to have no coloration what so ever. He wanted his system to sound as close to the real thing as possible...with as much transparency he could get.


After leaving his house that day, my buddy and I felt like we had left a very loud rock concert...you know how your ears feel after that. (All that gear and no Turntable....that's shameful :nono But that's not why I'm tell you all this. The reason I'm tell you all this is because that system had no distortion what so ever. It had no color what so ever....it was supper transparent and STERILE AS HELL! It was lifeless...and cold. No sir....if some one wants no coloration at all, no warmth at all...nothing but a cold system go ahead....have fun! I will take an emotional system that can make me move on the inside any day. I will gladly take my system over a 100k system that sounds like you would feel in the coldest part of Alaska any day...unless you let me sell it to build me a nice system with a little coloration.:yes:

...slippers---