It's possible you'd like the Klipschorns if you heard them in a different context. I've only heard them in very simple systems; for example, just a good turntable and basic, but high quality, integrated amp. No extra tweeters or attempts to smooth over any inherent colorations. The volume and dynamics of a live performance were there, but so was the emotion and involvement with the music.
The 'warmth' of vinyl.
- Thread starter catman
- Start date
It's possible you'd like the Klipschorns if you heard them in a different context. I've only heard them in very simple systems; for example, just a good turntable and basic, but high quality, integrated amp. No extra tweeters or attempts to smooth over any inherent colorations. The volume and dynamics of a live performance were there, but so was the emotion and involvement with the music.
Pio1980
AK Member
Yep, also Thiel and Fuselier amongst other speakers and the various Canadian speakers produced under the protocols from research of the University of Waterloo at Ottawa. It was John Fuselier that taught me the wisdom of pulse testing.
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slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Since 1997, I've been using the Creek OBH-8 MM Phono Pre-Amp (with OBH-2 PSU).
Does it sound warm? Yes and no. At the tiime I bought it, I was given the option to "road test" this unit directly against the Rotel RQ970 Phono Pre-amp - the Rotel sounded "warmer" but did it sound "better"? No, it didn't. The Creek box reproduced a much more detailed mid-range and top-end.
The Creek unit has a built-in sub-sonic (warp) filter which lended a somewhat "lighter" bass sound - however, the mid-range detail from the Creek unit blew the Rotel box totally out of the water.
Warmer = rounder = fuller?? What does any of this mean?
I'm confident that the choice I made in 1997 was the correct one. I wont give up my wee Creek OBH-8 box lightly, that's for sure....
James H
Well I have the new Creek OBH 15 MK2....its a wonderful phono amp. When I first got it, I was a little disappointed. After run in its a wonder amp. Top was a little live in the beginning but its settled down and bass was a little lost, but now its nice..and the mids with a Creek, always good. It has a the filter you mentioned and they added dip switches and its MC/MM. The tone is also great with it....I love this little thing.
slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Yeah...its possible. And you know how first experiences go.... the Horns left me cold.
Pio1980
AK Member
Some folks love the 'jump' and dynamic expression of the Klipsch (and other) horn speakers and while they 'do' brass and percussion nicely, voices and stringed and other acoustic sounds come off as if from a PA system rather than naturally 'live' and that's the main reason mine departed for Dahlquists around 1975.
My present experimental/auditioning/critical listening system uses re-worked Advent-2 with JBL/Selenium waveguide horn mid-tweeters that don't do that.
My present experimental/auditioning/critical listening system uses re-worked Advent-2 with JBL/Selenium waveguide horn mid-tweeters that don't do that.
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
The magical pairing is horns with Single Ended Triode amplification. There is a simplicity and directness to directly heated triodes that is unlike any other form of amplification. A well designed horn does not sound nasally, or honk, or exhibit any of those other bad traits they are often reported to have. However, I have heard high efficiency speakers on even 50 to 60 watt solid state amplifiers that sounded sterile at best, or down right aggressive.
I remember in my early days of SET I had a pair of AES SE 811 amplifiers. These used the Svetlana 811-3 output tube, and were good for 13 wpc.....probably closer to 8 or 9 in reality. A guy brought over a pair of Klipsch Chorus, at that time I was using a set of Cabasse Farella 401. I had worked part time during college in an audio store and we carried Klipsch, my memories of the Chorus gave me reservations. But we did not do SET or low powered tubes at that store, so I never really experienced what they were capable of. Those Chorus sounded mighty fine on the AES amplifiers, detailed and layered with dynamic expression, and yet fairly refined sounding. Changed my opinion on what Klipsch speakers could do.
Except for a brief tryst with a Rowland Model 5 and Consummate pre-amp, I have been a SET kind of pig ever since.
Regards
Mister Pig
Pio1980
AK Member
The post-PWK-designed original line Klipch are likely very different from the original marine plywood 3-ways of the 1960s/70s.
FWIW, it's much easier to 'do' a 2-way that works right than a 3-way or other more complex design. The 'gotcha' is that few drivers can 'go' sufficiently near-full-range at realistic levels (to avoid getting into trouble in the critical cross-over region) to make the 2-way viable as an 'ultimate' approach. The only one-way I can recall that had the possibility of being a great speaker was the Ohm 'F' Lincoln Walsh single-driver speaker tho' I've never heard them. A great original concept with severe aging issues with the originals re deteriorating damping materials and sagging suspensions under the considerable vertical mass of the compound radiator cone, they require considerable amounts of very clean drive power IIRC to work right.
FWIW, it's much easier to 'do' a 2-way that works right than a 3-way or other more complex design. The 'gotcha' is that few drivers can 'go' sufficiently near-full-range at realistic levels (to avoid getting into trouble in the critical cross-over region) to make the 2-way viable as an 'ultimate' approach. The only one-way I can recall that had the possibility of being a great speaker was the Ohm 'F' Lincoln Walsh single-driver speaker tho' I've never heard them. A great original concept with severe aging issues with the originals re deteriorating damping materials and sagging suspensions under the considerable vertical mass of the compound radiator cone, they require considerable amounts of very clean drive power IIRC to work right.
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
There are a few companies that have been offering updates for the classic series of Klipsch speakers, and it involves building a new tractrix style horn for the midrange, and reworking the x over system. The reports on them are quite attractive, there is one local person here who has a pair of K Horns with updated midrange and tweeter horns and drivers, and x over. They are driven by a pair of Transcendent Audio 3 watt mono-blocks, and the sound is utterly sublime.
I don't know if you have had the chance to do it, but get out and listen to a SET and multi horn speaker if you can. It is not likely to be a commercial offering, but going to have to be an DIY personal system, or some sort of audio club that has a lot of DIY'ers in it. You might be surprised. I heard the small AES amp once on a pair of JBL L300, and was hooked. Never went back. Ther is an immediacy and direct connection to the music that is not created by many other forms of audio systems. In my mind it is the most honest presentation of music I have experienced.
Regards
Mister Pig
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Stated very eloquently! you should be an audio magazine writer.....
Regards
Mister Pig
Frank Sol
Lunatic Member
Horns are temperamental and finicky and dont play well with others if the others are not well matched. I believe many if not most people give up on horns for those reasons then complain about their 'sound'
Definitely not for everyone
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Well anything that is high rez is temperamental and finicky, and does not tolerate poorly matched associated equipment. that is the baisc natgure of high resolution and high performance gear. Hook up a pair of Apogee Scintillia to an Onkyo M504 or B&K ST202, and you get a smoke show in 90 days or less. Hook up a Celestion SL 600 to most amps, and be prepared to hear what that nasty impedance curve does to an Adcom 555, its not a pretty thing.
There certainly are plenty of reasons out there for not liking horns. They tend to be big, are fairly expensive, and well executed designs are not tolerant of associated equipment that is grainy, dry, or sterile sounding. Thank goodness there are plenty of system types for people to choose from, otherwise it would b a boring hobby.
For what tis worth, the Japanese vintage crowd really did rediscover SET and vintage horns. They bought everything we would ship over there, and it took quite awhile for the domestic SET movement to gain any traction. Lots of wonderful gear was dismissed as old and archaic, when they were really hidden gems. All them Japanese hobbyists knew a thing or two, and they stayed the course of SET, horns, and vinyl front ends.
But no its not for everyone. But it is a system type that should be experienced at least once in order to know what is possible.
Regards
Mister Pig
slippers-on
Music...let it move you!
Yes...a PA system.
BayouTiger
Super Member
Interesting reading other's impressions and interpretations. I am just making my first foray into any listening with "vintage" gear in the fray. After getting the Bogen last week and inserting it into the system, I am finding that the "warmth" is a little fickle. My setup using the Peachtree was a little on the bright side, but vinyl through it with the BPS and Tube Box was very clean and pleasant. Digital sources from the Sonos or AppleTv were a bit bright and could be tiring after awhile.
After swapping in the Bogen, I find the vinyl to be slightly dull and heavy, though very easy to listen to, but the digital sources are incredible, and the stage and depth are much better than any SS amp I have owned which really surprises me.
Now I am somewhat squarely in the "warmth" dilemma. I guess that's what makes the hobby interesting, finding the right mix of equivalent that will reach the sweet spot across the board. My next step is to put the 2M Black on the old unit and see how it does through the onboard preamp. It did not do well with the Sumiko.
After swapping in the Bogen, I find the vinyl to be slightly dull and heavy, though very easy to listen to, but the digital sources are incredible, and the stage and depth are much better than any SS amp I have owned which really surprises me.
Now I am somewhat squarely in the "warmth" dilemma. I guess that's what makes the hobby interesting, finding the right mix of equivalent that will reach the sweet spot across the board. My next step is to put the 2M Black on the old unit and see how it does through the onboard preamp. It did not do well with the Sumiko.
iLUVanalog
Addicted Member
Got horns? Use tube amps.
A major mistake people make with horns is over-amping. Horns are very efficient and don't need much amp power. In this case, the "less is more" rule applies.
A major mistake people make with horns is over-amping. Horns are very efficient and don't need much amp power. In this case, the "less is more" rule applies.
dnewma04
The Healer
Or, use solid state amps and get better horns. Or use better horns with tubes. All can work excellently together. There is no mistake being made with "over amping" a speaker and alternatively, there is no mistake with taking a low power tube approach.