The 'warmth' of vinyl.

[crossram]

I really doubt it. These are different masters. In theory, the vinyl would be the original plus added compression, reduced stereo separation, the lowest bass filtered out, some phase shifts done to prevent tracking problems... In practice, it's never so logical and the CD one can be much worse. Point is, they aren't the same record. If you had access to a digital copy of the vinyl master, that might make for an interesting listening comparison.

dumptruck, I'm sure that you and gusted are right. It must be phantom differences due to something 'someone' did to the LP master or my wife's imagination and not actual differences in the sound quality of the two formats. That would be impossible, right? After all, a diamond stylus attached mechanically to a magnetic transducer while reading true analog waveforms is the same thing as an optical laser reading and transmitting sampled digital bits to an IC with a programmed digital algorithm that attempts to simulate a sound wave...

Just for the record, I love my CDP and think that it sounds terrific. This doesn't mean that I don't hear differences between it and my analog rig.

Edit: I think that the underlying debate in this thread is whether analog mastering/playback is additive and/or whether digital mastering/playback is subtractive. I think both are true and the additive/subtractive nature of each is diminished as the gear improves.

 

[dumptruck]

dumptruck, I'm sure that you and gusted are right. It must be phantom differences due to something 'someone' did to the LP master or my wife's imagination and not actual differences in the sound quality of the two formats. That would be impossible, right? After all, a diamond stylus attached mechanically to a magnetic transducer while reading true analog waveforms is the same thing as an optical laser reading and transmitting sampled digital bits to an IC with a programmed digital algorithm that attempts to simulate a sound wave...

No, not "phantom differences", substantial, real differences. It's just that your comparison doesn't tell what would happen if the exact signal used to cut for vinyl, minus the RIAA filter, plus the response curve created by your cart+pre (rarely flat), was put on CD and played on your system. That is the only way you could really listen for other differences between the two technologies you just described. I'm not trying to imply they are the same. If they were, we wouldn't need to put different sounds on them in the first place (but we probably would anyway ).

Of course, knowing whether you could hear any difference in the special scenario I just described would not be of any practical value, because you DO get different masters for vinyl and CD.

 

[dumptruck]

P.S. Digital gear doesn't "simulate" the waveform. It may have flaws, but please don't imagine that pixelated stairstep approximation of a soundwave that people like to post around. That isn't how it works. Math describes sound quite accurately. It's just a matter of writing and reading it well (okay not the digits, that's easy, I mean the larger system). I own about 90% vinyl, btw.

 

[davidro]

G'day all, certainly my experience of listening to live music in a good acoustic venue, is one of 'warmth' :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.

rolled off high is an inevitable aspect of live acoustic music which explains why it might sound warm.

 

[crossram]

Dumptruck, please read the edit to my last post and drop this. We are both in over our heads. :yes:

 

[Un-filtrd]

What are others preferences that way? Warm or cool, or something other?

I hate fluorescent lighting and much prefer the warmth of incandescent bulbs… can you guess the answer?

 

[Br1ck]

I like many presentations, leaning toward warmth. The one thing I have no use for is any gear that I can't listen to for three hours straight.

 

[Mister Pig]

FWIW(not much, since such threads rarely get us anywhere), I prefer detail and air to warmth in my system. I get enough warmth from my speakers, don't need extra from my vinyl rig. I like the description that porcine fellow gave earlier (not clear what 'overy coloration' is though :scratch2.

I am grateful to this forum and Felix for describing what they like about the M97XE and the Grados, so I could steer away from them in my quest. :thmbsp:

When you are a pig, you have hooves you see? Typing on a traditional keyboard is darn near impossible with hooves. So I have to hunt and peck, using a duct taped duck. They tend to squirm a bit, and since I need bifocals, well I sometimes do not see what needs correction, even with that little red line below it.

I did try using a goose once, but it was cantankerous and shat all over the keyboard. Had to run it through the dishwasher, and it never seemed to work quite as well as it did before the goose defecation. I also tried using a chicken once, I put cracked corn on the key I needed struck, and the bird would peck and eat the corn, and type my letter. Unfortunately the speed of pecking increased to the point where the corn would jump off the intended key, and an adjacent key would be inadvertently struck. So these days i stick to ducks, but try to find ones that are not too feisty.

If you read a post by a pig, you are more than likely to find some degree of typos in it. Just the nature of way things get done around the farm.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Cù Faoil]

I think these debates will always go round in circles without conclusion.
We are looking for correlation between the scientific factors of tonally flat and distortion free play back -v- the emotional involvement of music we like. These are neither compatible nor comparable, a bit like comparing chalk and beer.

I am more acutely aware of play back quality when listening to music I don't like. There is an emotional detachment and it's as though the analytical side takes over. Put on one of my favourite tracks and it would probably take a major equipment malfunction before I'd notice....

So whatever and however you would describe your system the end result is the emotional involvement of the music. If the soundstage it creates makes you happy then you have hifi. I don't expect people to like my system just because I do.

What is your supporting gear around your 2M Black?

3 way floorstanders - own design (KEF drive units)
80w Class A power amp - own design
Preamp + phono - own design
ditto TT with Acos GST-1 arm

The few commercial bits occasionally used: CA Azur 651P, Slee Reflex M, Slee Elevator

 

[grottyash]

I think these debates will always go round in circles without conclusion.
We are looking for correlation between the scientific factors of tonally flat and distortion free play back -v- the emotional involvement of music we like. These are neither compatible nor comparable, a bit like comparing chalk and beer.

I am more acutely aware of play back quality when listening to music I don't like. There is an emotional detachment and it's as though the analytical side takes over. Put on one of my favourite tracks and it would probably take a major equipment malfunction before I'd notice....

So whatever and however you would describe your system the end result is the emotional involvement of the music. If the soundstage it creates makes you happy then you have hifi. I don't expect people to like my system just because I do.



3 way floorstanders - own design (KEF drive units)
80w Class A power amp - own design
Preamp + phono - own design
ditto TT with Acos GST-1 arm

The few commercial bits occasionally used: CA Azur 651P, Slee Reflex M, Slee Elevator

I think this shows a fundamental misunderstanding. The emotional involvement of the music comes from the music and the playing, and has nothing to do with accuracy or flat response. I'm not sure tonally flat is the right term either - remember that if the original is mixed to the warm, then that's how an accurate system displays it, not as "tonally flat".

 

[Cù Faoil]

. I'm not sure tonally flat is the right term either - remember that if the original is mixed to the warm, then that's how an accurate system displays it, not as "tonally flat".

Tonally flat is used in the scientific measurement sense. I apply a signal, either from a test tone disc or via a signal generator and inverse RIAA network and the result is a flat spectrum.

Then if the source disc is mixed 'warm' then that is what it reproduces.

 

[datafone]

CD can be made to sound warm as well, and vinyl can be made to sound sterile and cold. A system can be tuned to sound either way with each media.

Warmth for myself, is a degree of weight and body to the sound.

 

[grottyash]

Tonally flat is used in the scientific measurement sense. I apply a signal, either from a test tone disc or via a signal generator and inverse RIAA network and the result is a flat spectrum.

Then if the source disc is mixed 'warm' then that is what it reproduces.

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

 

[slippers-on]

I think these debates will always go round in circles without conclusion.
We are looking for correlation between the scientific factors of tonally flat and distortion free play back -v- the emotional involvement of music we like. These are neither compatible nor comparable, a bit like comparing chalk and beer.

I am more acutely aware of play back quality when listening to music I don't like. There is an emotional detachment and it's as though the analytical side takes over. Put on one of my favourite tracks and it would probably take a major equipment malfunction before I'd notice....

So whatever and however you would describe your system the end result is the emotional involvement of the music. If the soundstage it creates makes you happy then you have hifi. I don't expect people to like my system just because I do.

Aint that the truth...in part! I'd notice right away if it didnt move me. and sterile does nothing for me. I've also discovered years ago, some people are as cold as ice....no feeling whatsoever...maybe that guy with the $100.000 rig had no insides.:scratch2: I read your review about your 2 carts..A tale of two carts....the 2M Black and ....the Ortofon 540 mkII. Nothing sterile about the 2M black....the way it is able to push the emotion of an artists craft through the music.

3 way floorstanders - own design (KEF drive units)
80w Class A power amp - own design
Preamp + phono - own design
ditto TT with Acos GST-1 arm

The few commercial bits occasionally used: CA Azur 651P, Slee Reflex M, Slee Elevator

Yeah...I've seen your posting with your gear...interesting! Especially your TT. You got skills!

 

[grottyash]

slipper-on, what do you mean by sterile?

 

[slippers-on]

slipper-on, what do you mean by sterile?

Free of any coloration whatsoever. No distortion whatsoever. No life...nothing that makes you feel the artist craft....not able to move you on the insides....some people love a totally free, flat as can be system. Nothing wrong with a totally flat system if it has a little emotion, but one without it is lifeless in my opinion. Now I don't want a syrupy warm system either....that's overly warm. One friend of mine had a Conrad-Johnson rig with some old Dynaudio speakers years ago that was to romantic....its sound was thick as a brick and would put you to sleep....boring as heck! That was the apposite end of a totally sterile rig. Both extremes you might say. Neither one does any thing for me. I like a little coloration and distortion. Some people say tubes can be free of coloration....I've yet to hear a tubed rig free of coloration. There are degrees, but I've never heard one free of distortion. I've heard SS gear free of distortion, and the associated gear was colored...making for a nice sound. But some rigs are completely sterile...and I suspect they build it that way...they may even search out sterile gear. Now this is only what I have experienced and don't expect all to agree with me....and I am sure many don't...but I know some do. Im not taking about scientific facts either....im talking about how a system sounds to my ears.

 

[grottyash]

The emotion surely comes from the music and the playing, not to mention the production. I might think that a lot of The Eagles stuff is sterile, because, to my ears anyway, much of the playing is wooden and the production is more about detail than giving the songs life, whereas I might think CSNY is the opposite, full of emotion, slightly raw at times but otherwise always interesting.

An uncoloured sound doesn't remove any emotion from the music, in fact, it is just the opposite, it merely presents the music as musicians and producer intended.

 

[slippers-on]

The emotion surely comes from the music and the playing, not to mention the production. I might think that a lot of The Eagles stuff is sterile, because, to my ears anyway, much of the playing is wooden and the production is more about detail than giving the songs life, whereas I might think CSNY is the opposite, full of emotion, slightly raw at times but otherwise always interesting.

An uncoloured sound doesn't remove any emotion from the music, in fact, it is just the opposite, it merely presents the music as musicians and producer intended.

I'd have to disagree slightly with this last part. We sat for hours listening to that totally flat $100.000 system. The owner said he built it to be totally flat with no coloration whatsoever. Played sevral CD...all lifeless....the proof is in the pudding, But thats ok. We all hear different.

 

[grottyash]

Actually, slippers-on, I'd say your speakers are uncouloured and neutral, having heard them several times. Your amp, too, unless Rotel have changed their sound, I wouldn't say was particularly coloured either. Whether your preamp introduces distortion in the sense of warmth, given it's a hybrid, is another matter, but at face value you seem have a neutral system.

Nice system, by the way. I've always intended to buy German gear, and Canton have always been big on my radar.

 

[robgmn]

Hearing a $100,000 system that's described as "totally flat" doesn't mean it was designed to emulate the sound of the original recording, however.
I assume it means it was designed to reproduce the incoming audio signal as accurately as possible without adding/subtracting anything.
Two different animals.

That said, I'll post this question in what seems to be turning into a discussion of digital versus analog sources. It's an interesting hypothetical to consider:

Filters can be applied to digital that can make it "imitate" the sound of vinyl (channel crosstalk, frequency rolloff/boost in specific areas, emulation of response curves of different cartridges, phono preamps, turntables, addition of surface noise if desired, other distortions etc.).
*Much like the old Bob Carver "Transfer Function" challenge.*

Can anyone play back vinyl and make it sound like digital, or even just like the master tape that was used to cut the master pressing?



BTW I often hear that vinyl is more accurate than digital. Given that there is always discussion of the different "sound" of cartridges, phono preamps, platters, mats, bearings, etc., how can this be so?
Given the choice of 3 TTs, 3 carts, 3 Preamps and 3 tonearms, you have 81 possible combinations alone that can produce widely varying sound.
There's a lot more variety than that out there (I'm guessing tens of thousands of possible combos).
Not all CD players sound the same, but the differences seem to be focused on overall accuracy in playback, the ultimate goal being identical reproduction between all players.
Kind of odd...