This seems so appropriate...

[JohnVF]

MMaybe it's universal with nose in the air, I'm special types.

Speaking of this, I'm so over AK and its "scientists" its not even funny anymore. I have not learned a single useful thing on this site in 4 years from an objectivist. Every single thing I have 'learned' on this site based on 'what should be" turned out to be a waste of time, money, and effort because none of it. Not one thing, stood up to my first hand experience. Everything I have tried in reality, contradicted what I'm repeatedly told here is the case according to 'science'. So as far as science in audio is concerned, I could give a ****.

I'm happy the people designing my gear are both scientific, and still open minded. I"m done with the arm-chair scientists, and I'm very close to being done with this forum in its entirety. I think too many people equate being completely closed minded to being scientific, and too many people think that what a small about of EE knowledge gives you takes the place of actually bothering to listen to anything. And they throw out "blind test blind test blind test blind test" because they're too lazy to go out in the field and just listen to something. As if listening to something wasn't part of objective information gathering. How on Earth did it become 'objective' to just guess what everything must sound like based on an assumption? Or 'objective' to come up with a biased viewpoint and then setting out to prove it, instead of just wanting to learn the truth? Isn't science about about observing a phenomena then setting out to figure out why, instead of hearing about a phenomena from another person and then setting out to disprove it without even bothering to try and hear it for oneself? I imagine that there must be some real scientists involved in this hobby that just roll their eyes at what passes for objectivity in it.

And as far as nose in the air "I'm special" types, what in that rebuttal gave an indication of that? He's familiar with violins, and explaining how violin players -outside of the test- actually go about figuring out the things that the test is trying to disprove. Basically the test is trying to get people to make a call in a completely different manner than they would normally go about making that call. I believe that ANY real scientist would think that this information just might have something to do with the results of the test, instead of automatically thinking the writer is some sort of snob.

 

[Scuzzer]

I"m done with the arm-chair scientists, and I'm very close to being done with this forum in its entirety.

I'm sorry you feel that way John because I value your subjective opinions on equipment and feel it would be a loss to this site if you left. I sometimes engage in these types of discussions to figure out why people think the way they do, not to change opinions because we both know that's futile. I just find it interesting that people can approach this hobby from such differing points of view and it's always more interesting having a discussion with someone who can cogently state their diametrically opposed viewpoint rather than hang out in an echo chamber.

I knew adding the nose in the air comment would attract debate and added it simply to see what would happen. In hindsight perhaps I should have chosen less loaded language.

 

[JohnVF]

I'm sorry you feel that way John because I value your subjective opinions on equipment and feel it would be a loss to this site if you left. I sometimes engage in these types of discussions to figure out why people think the way they do, not to change opinions because we both know that's futile. I just find it interesting that people can approach this hobby from such differing points of view and it's always more interesting having a discussion with someone who can cogently state their diametrically opposed viewpoint rather than hang out in an echo chamber.

I knew adding the nose in the air comment would attract debate and added it simply to see what would happen. In hindsight perhaps I should have chosen less loaded language.

Your comment just came at the end of a bad day of me having too much time to spend on AK debating these things, and being disappointed with one viewpoint after another. Its certainly not my place to say what is right or wrong, but I honestly can not believe how different my experience LISTENING to gear has been to my experience READING from people TYPING about what gear should or shouldn't sound like without ever having heard it (don't you hate when people type-yell? I do). I hang out in a few audio stores, and have friends that work in one, and that experience has taught me 100 times more than the back and forth on this site with many folks that don't seem to think you have to go out and listen, in a hobby about listening. I"m not referring to you, just the prevalent attitude in this place that seems to say that you can infer anything you want about something without having to bother hearing if it can sound good.

I want objectivity. That subjective-leaning people don't want that, is a fallacy (well, some probably don't want any). But what I see passed off as objectivity in this hobby, is rarely objective. Its almost always to prove a point, or to prove that something isn't worth its price tag, or to prove that somebody who thinks they know what they're talking about, doesn't. It almost always seems to have a bias attached to it. Nobody seems to just be flat-out curious about things (outside of the DIY community). I wouldn't even be bothered by this behavior were it not passed off as being objective. If people admit their biases, fine. But to ridicule other people for being subjective, then to turn around and hide behind assumptions and a lack of first hand experience just seems odd to me. And so many people here do that. It just seems incredibly hypocritical.

Man I need a drink! Though it probably reads like I've already been hitting the bottle. Amazing what a shitty day at work can do, when bleeding into a hobby.

 

[Scuzzer]

I want objectivity. That subjective-leaning people don't want that, is a fallacy (well, some probably don't want any). But what I see passed off as objectivity in this hobby, is rarely objective. Its almost always to prove a point, or to prove that something isn't worth its price tag, or to prove that somebody who thinks they know what they're talking about, doesn't.

I understand your frustration and feel the same way when reading some of the threads around here. I usually just read the (wire/DBT/Vinyl vs CD) threads and assign folks a mental status based on 1950s Hollywood style.

Good guys:

Bad guys:

Other:

It lightens the mood and lets me get on with more pressing issues like going into the kitchen and getting another cup of coffee. Sometimes when I find a white hatted guy with a completely different take on something than me I probe a bit deeper because I might have a chance of learning something. I like learning.

 

[JohnVF]

It lightens the mood and lets me get on with more pressing issues like going into the kitchen and getting another cup of coffee.

That's certainly a good way to put it into perspective. I try to wear a grey hat but my opinion has become jaded by things I keep being told will be one way that, when I try them out, turn out to be something completely different. I've only been in this hobby with any sort of seriousness for 5 years, though I jumped in head first. So I had a lot of learning to catch up on. It's been incredibly disappointing to me, in general not just at AK, how full of contempt the audio community seems to be, for different approaches to things, and how un-open to experimentation so many seem to be. Its like everybody just went down a path and signed some pact to defend that path at all costs, regardless of how arbitrary their initial reason was for going down that path. If budget sent them down the vintage path, then vintage gets defended at all costs, and anybody who doesn't listen to vintage is a snob, an elitist, or is stupid and deluded. If a magazine review sent them down a modern high-end route, they defend it by saying that all vintage fans are Luddites or cheapskates. I know very few in this hobby that are just open to the idea that it doesn't matter. That anything can be good, and anything can be bad. And if something really is better, that it still doesn't really matter all that much in the big scheme of things.

Anyway, cheers. I'm sorry that I flipped out on you there.

For the record, when I wear a hat, its a Greek fisherman's cap.

Like this:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...921x00003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=04315339006

Speaking of which, that light grey one is pretty sweet. I think I'm going to buy it.

 

[Fisherdude]

I love music. I love my toys.

I try to avoid the idiots, but it's difficult. Subjectivists and objectivists are both bigots, with their individual viewpoints unalterably distorted by their own closed minds and the flavors of their own hatred.

If you love the beach, you can't avoid the surf.

 

[Scuzzer]

I know very few in this hobby that are just open to the idea that it doesn't matter. That anything can be good, and anything can be bad.

I like tubes and records but I'm also an engineering type nerd so I understand, I get it from both sides. Perhaps one of us should insert an island of misfit toys picture.

Back to the learning bit. Do you actually get pissed off when folks spout nonsense or do you mostly just shrug it off? I think people sometimes mistake my style of posting for being pissed when I'm just stating an opinion.

For the record, when I wear a hat, its a Greek fisherman's cap.

Speaking of which, that light grey one is pretty sweet. I think I'm going to buy it.

Hipster. Please post a photo of you in it when you get it.

 

[JohnVF]

I love music. I love my toys.

I try to avoid the idiots, but it's difficult. Subjectivists and objectivists are both bigots, with their individual viewpoints unalterably distorted by their own closed minds and the flavors of their own hatred.

If you love the beach, you can't avoid the surf.

Well said. Of course, having the reputation as the local grumpy subjectivist, I get to be an audio bigot But I really don't consider myself one. I just haven't found the correlation between what I hear, and measurements. I really, very badly, want there to be some correlation because I'm not an illogical person. But at the end of the day, I'm going to buy what I think sounds good regardless of what it 'should' sound like. And to me, that has a certain logic to it.

 

[Fisherdude]

Well said. Of course, having the reputation as the local grumpy subjectivist, I get to be an audio bigot But I really don't consider myself one. I just haven't found the correlation between what I hear, and measurements. I really, very badly, want there to be some correlation because I'm not an illogical person. But at the end of the day, I'm going to buy what I think sounds good regardless of what it 'should' sound like. And to me, that has a certain logic to it.

Except you're not a subjectivist, you're a curious listener. Those two things are not supposed to be automatically linked to the exclusion of everything else, including a natural curiosity as to why things sound the way they do.

I'm a curious listener. I like that picture.

 

[JohnVF]

I like tubes and records but I'm also an engineering type nerd so I understand, I get it from both sides. Perhaps one of us should insert an island of misfit toys picture.

Back to the learning bit. Do you actually get pissed off when folks spout nonsense or do you mostly just shrug it off? I think people sometimes mistake my style of posting for being pissed when I'm just stating an opinion.

I'm trying to shrug it off more than I do, but I'm also trying to learn and be open minded.To recant a bit of something above, I have learned objective things- but they have not been from self-described 'objective' folks on this site. There are some people in the middle who are the ones I think I can learn the most from. And I know that there's just as much ridiculousness from the subjective-only side. For whatever reason, I get less pissed at them though, because they seem to be less fascist about whether or not you can choose to follow their same path.

 

[JohnVF]

Except you're not a subjectivist, you're a curious listener. Those two things are not supposed to be automatically linked to the exclusion of everything else, including a natural curiosity as to why things sound the way they do.

I'm a curious listener. I like that picture.

You're just letting me off of the hook because I like and own Fisher gear :thmbsp: My first conversation with you was about my Fisher tuner- you suggested that I go back and buy the matching integrated amp, which I did, and its been the one piece of gear I've been happiest with for the longest time. That was an educated opinion based on experience with the brand. And it turned out to really be helpful. I wish more of us could just have discussions like that, without it becoming this thing where we're trying to prove a viewpoint or defend the path we've gone down.

 

[JohnVF]

Hipster. Please post a photo of you in it when you get it.

I look like a total hipster, but I can't stand hipsters. They stole my schtick.

 

[Scuzzer]

I look like a total hipster, but I can't stand hipsters. They stole my schtick.

I've read enough of your posts to slip that one in there.

 

[JohnVF]

I've read enough of your posts to slip that one in there.

I'm wearing knee-high leather boots that lace all the way up- I'm going to beat them at their own game. No way are they going to pull that look off. Of course with the Greek hat it makes me look like a U-boat commander but whatever. Lifes's too short to not be ridiculous.

I suspect you have hipster blood in you, too- takes one to know one, and all that

I think we should all base our adherence to one thing or another on this attitude:

 

[Fisherdude]

You're just letting me off of the hook because I like and own Fisher gear :thmbsp: My first conversation with you was about my Fisher tuner- you suggested that I go back and buy the matching integrated amp, which I did, and its been the one piece of gear I've been happiest with for the longest time. That was an educated opinion based on experience with the brand. And it turned out to really be helpful. I wish more of us could just have discussions like that, without it becoming this thing where we're trying to prove a viewpoint or defend the path we've gone down.

I never let anybody off the hook.

I'll share something with you about my collecting that I hope will be enlightening.

I fully understand that the best of today's gear is better than 99% of vintage gear. No question. None. And, I understand that although the best of the vintage Fisher tube gear is pretty darn good, with a very few exceptions, there's better to be had out there.

But, you know what? I don't care. I like what I like. I like the sound. I like the looks. I like the history of the company, and I like what Avery Fisher tried to accomplish, and did. I like the engineering and the obvious care that went into this equipment. And, I couldn't care less whether something else is marginally better in some marginally important way.

So, that's what I picked. And I'm happy with it.

But, I still like listening to everything else. I like to see if I can describe, in my own head, the differences in what I hear. Sometimes I can hear differences, sometimes I can't. When I can, it's interesting, to me, on an intellectual basis, to try to describe the differences. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Sometimes I feel something is better, sometimes not.

But, it's always interesting. And that's what it's all about.

 

[Scuzzer]

But, you know what? I don't care. I like what I like. I like the sound. I like the looks.

+1. I like talking to the guys looking for that extra 1% because sometimes I feel like I'm missing out on something but then I go back to listening to records using 1950s technology and just forget about it.

 

[Fisherdude]

I have some very nice equipment in my listening room. Very nice. And I have a boombox in the garage that I play when I'm working in the yard or cleaning the garage.

You know what?

When you're cleaning out the garage you're SUPPOSED to be listening to a boombox. It's the natural order of the universe, and anybody who thinks you're supposed to be listening to a "garage system" in the garage just doesn't understand life.

Nothing sounds as good as garage music on a boombox. Nothing.

Well, a boombox plus a nice, cold beer.

 

[JohnVF]

I never let anybody off the hook.

I'll share something with you about my collecting that I hope will be enlightening.

I fully understand that the best of today's gear is better than 99% of vintage gear. No question. None. And, I understand that although the best of the vintage Fisher tube gear is pretty darn good, with a very few exceptions, there's better to be had out there.

But, you know what? I don't care. I like what I like. I like the sound. I like the looks. I like the history of the company, and I like what Avery Fisher tried to accomplish, and did. I like the engineering and the obvious care that went into this equipment. And, I couldn't care less whether something else is marginally better in some marginally important way.

So, that's what I picked. And I'm happy with it.

But, I still like listening to everything else. I like to see if I can describe, in my own head, the differences in what I hear. Sometimes I can hear differences, sometimes I can't. When I can, it's interesting, to me, on an intellectual basis, to try to describe the differences. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Sometimes I feel something is better, sometimes not.

But, it's always interesting. And that's what it's all about.

That's perfectly logical to me, especially why you choose to listen to Fisher. I was recently thinking about buying a new tube amp for my Harbeths, because I've heard some excellent ones. Instead I am having a tech look at my ailing SA-300. It may never sound as good as the Atma-sphere monoblocks I was looking at, but I'm coming to the conclusion that chasing the best sound doesn't make me as happy as i thought it would, even though I know there's better stuff. I'm having so much more fun listening to this little Leben amp and my Cabasses from 1980 and this Sony turntable. It's fun, and its good enough. And that is not at all subjective, or objective. I know there is objectively AND subjectively better gear, because I own it- its about 15 feet away from me. But you can't measure satisfaction outside of the person experiencing it. And that goes back to the subject of this thread- so much of what we get out of something, has nothing to do with the obvious things that we think we should measure or test for. Its also why I hate when people mock those who chase after tweaks, even though I personally think most of them are going to result in a small change, if any at all. They're having fun and they're liking something- its no different than the wooden cabinet on a '70s receiver. It does nothing for the sound, but for whatever reason, you like something more because of it.

 

[Fisherdude]

That's perfectly logical to me, especially why you choose to listen to Fisher. I was recently thinking about buying a new tube amp for my Harbeths, because I've heard some excellent ones. Instead I am having a tech look at my ailing SA-300. It may never sound as good as the Atma-sphere monoblocks I was looking at, but I'm coming to the conclusion that chasing the best sound doesn't make me as happy as i thought it would, even though I know there's better stuff. I'm having so much more fun listening to this little Leben amp and my Cabasses from 1980 and this Sony turntable. It's fun, and its good enough. And that is not at all subjective, or objective. I know there is objectively AND subjectively better gear, because I own it- its about 15 feet away from me. But you can't measure satisfaction outside of the person experiencing it. And that goes back to the subject of this thread- so much of what we get out of something, has nothing to do with the obvious things that we think we should measure or test for. Its also why I hate when people mock those who chase after tweaks, even though I personally think most of them are going to result in a small change, if any at all. They're having fun and they're liking something- its no different than the wooden cabinet on a '70s receiver. It does nothing for the sound, but for whatever reason, you like something more because of it.

Yup, when it's very, very good, it no longer matters whether or not it's "the best", whatever the hell that means.

 

[Scuzzer]

Nothing sounds as good as garage music on a boombox. Nothing.

I beg to differ. Nothing sounds better than an mp3 player through a T-amp after about 8 beers at the off grid cabin with a couple of good friends. Especially if the T-Amp is turned up to that magical point just before it starts sounding like poo. Just loud enough that I can't hear myself singing along.