This seems so appropriate...

[JohnVF]

+1. I like talking to the guys looking for that extra 1% because sometimes I feel like I'm missing out on something but then I go back to listening to records using 1950s technology and just forget about it.

What I've learned about the 1% is that it doesn't exist. And yeah, I've been chasing it (and think I've gotten pretty close to the 'accepted' definition of it). But it's a lie. There's no perfect sound, or at least not one that everybody would agree on. I keep bringing up this Leben amp. For the life of me I can't explain what it is about the sound of it that keeps me listening. But it was the thing I had been looking for since getting into this hobby. Vintage receivers, integrated amps, separates, monster amps, esoteric gear, old tube gear, high end, mid end, expensive, cheap, you name it has been through here. And this tiny little thing that I can lift with one hand, that measures pretty terribly by the accepted means of measuring- is it for me. You hear the same thing from SET guys. That everything they knew, started over from the beginning when they heard SET. It's been like an antidote to audiophilia. A perfect cure for upgraditis. And yet, somebody will waltz into these forums and tell me that it sounds the same as any other amp. Or that it doesn't sound as good as this or that, because it doesn't measure as good. Or that I don't know, because I haven't heard this or that. The same thing is thrown at the SET guys all the time on forums. That they can't possibly know what they're talking about, because the distortion levels are so high. Or that they wouldn't pick out their own amp in a blind test. Who cares? They're happy! Its like we, as a hobby, have decided that the natural state of things is to be in a perpetual state of unhappiness with what we have. Or that somebody else couldn't possibly be happy having gone down a path that differs from our own.

And so the blind test. One of the problems that i have with a lot of this is that to go down the logic-hole of the blind test, or most measurements, is to assume that there is a right answer at the end of the tunnel. That we know what there is to know, and that something that measures perfectly against that knowledge, is 'it', that its the right answer. What if there is no right answer?

 

[Fisherdude]

I beg to differ. Nothing sounds better than an mp3 player through a T-amp after about 8 beers at the off grid cabin with a couple of good friends. Especially if the T-Amp is turned up to that magical point just before it starts sounding like poo. Just loud enough that I can't hear myself singing along.

Exactly.

How many threads have there been on AK describing some symphony conductor or other world-class musician who, in his misguided, delusional way, listens to Mahler on his cheap-ass system and actually appears to enjoy it?

How can anybody who thinks they enjoy music read that sentence and not understand the meaning?

 

[Scuzzer]

I keep bringing up this Leben amp. For the life of me I can't explain what it is about the sound of it that keeps me listening. But it was the thing I had been looking for since getting into this hobby.

Now you're just preaching to the choir. I like tubes because they do everything I need them to and if they don't I can just scratch build another one. By and large they also obey the laws of physics and electricity so if my amp doesn't work I can easily figure out why.

How many threads have there been on AK describing some symphony conductor or other world-class musician who, in his misguided, delusional way, listens to Mahler on his cheap-ass system and actually appears to enjoy it?

That's why I think I missing something sometimes. I get the same enjoyment out of listening to good tunes on a wide variety of equipment that I have around here. Old consoles, big ass SS amps, high quality Ampex tube amps, all different horses for different courses but I can't actually say that one is so much better than another when I'm listening to good tunes. I actually know some are better but it doesn't really make that big of difference. Hence the need to delve a bit deeper to try and find what I might be missing.

What I've learned about the 1% is that it doesn't exist.

You got proof? Maybe a DBT or somethin'.

 

[Fisherdude]

What I've learned about the 1% is that it doesn't exist....There's no perfect sound, or at least not one that everybody would agree on...

This may be a little off-the-wall, or maybe not. John, did you see the article in today's Trib on playing live music at VA hospitals? It was on page 15 of the front section. Apparently a VA hospital got the idea of having live musicians play in the waiting room purely as a way to fill the silence. It was intended as a distraction, something to get the patients' minds off of their problems. Lots of them were suffering from PTSD or other emotional issues, and many were stressed and agitated when they got in to see a physician, and it was making care difficult. So, they started the live music. The pic in the article showed a harpist playing.

The effect was startling, and completely unanticipated. The doctors were both mystified and amazed. The agitated patients who came in were no longer agitated. The patients who were there to see a doc about their stress and anger were neither stressed nor angered. They were calm. They were happier.

From our perspective, though, the stunner was this:

Recorded music had no such effect.

So much for the search for the perfect system.

 

[JohnVF]

Its not lost on me that I seemed to enjoy music more in my younger years when I had a panasonic all in one. If we separated sound from music, we'd have on one side happy people, and on the other side people arguing about THD and/or bragging about the price of their amps. We'd have most of the hi-fi community. I think that very thing explains the popularity the paths of people who have gone off the reservation, like the DIY community, or the people who buy Shindo and Leben and SET or vintage tube gear that they can fix themselves. Those are ends that often have very different goals than 'perfection'. Its not by accident that I started chasing my little tube amp- I was purposefully trying to end the madness. In the community that chases things like Naim and Harbeth, for example, you have a lot of ex-hi-fi-perfectionists who just wanted something 'musical', to stop the bleeding. A lot of the hi fi community, is a reaction against the hi fi community.

 

[JohnVF]

This may be a little off-the-wall, or maybe not. John, did you see the article in today's Trib on playing live music at VA hospitals? It was on page 15 of the front section. Apparently a VA hospital got the idea of having live musicians play in the waiting room purely as a way to fill the silence. It was intended as a distraction, something to get the patients' minds off of their problems. Lots of them were suffering from PTSD or other emotional issues, and many were stressed and agitated when they got in to see a physician, and it was making care difficult. So, they started the live music. The pic in the article showed a harpist playing.

The effect was startling, and completely unanticipated. The doctors were both mystified and amazed. The agitated patients who came in were no longer agitated. The patients who were there to see a doc about their stress and anger were neither stressed nor angered. They were calm. They were happier.

From our perspective, though, the stunner was this:

Recorded music had no such effect.

So much for the search for the perfect system.

I hadn't read that but I'm certainly going to track it down. Shows what we know about sound, huh?

As you know, a lot of street musicians play around Michigan Ave. Also, a lot of store pump music out onto the street. Well, I work on Michigan Ave, and it is shockingly obvious when the music is live, and when it is recorded. We aren't even close. My Quads aren't close though I keep reading that they are. Nope. I go to a lot of live music, the city is full of it. The best we can get is to have something that we love, for whatever reason.

 

[Fisherdude]

And proof positive that the audio world is going to hell is that kids just listen to their crappy MP3 players through their crappy headphones, and think they're happy.

They are happy. They're listening to the music. They're listening to the story the songwriter wanted to tell, they're listening to the music the arranger wanted to write.

They're actually paying attention to what they're hearing. They're actually listening.

 

[JohnVF]

And proof positive that the audio world is going to hell is that kids just listen to their crappy MP3 players through their crappy headphones, and think they're happy.

They are happy. They're listening to the music. They're listening to the story the songwriter wanted to tell, they're listening to the music the arranger wanted to write.

They're actually paying attention to what they're hearing. They're actually listening.

I think more than anything that is repeated here, that is the one that gets me. The assumption that you can't enjoy it without listening at the highest fidelity, or even what we'd consider decent fidelity. Its not lost on me that I enjoyed music more when I had a Panasonic all in one. I just did- I was young, and everything was new and my emotions weren't jaded by 38 years of breakups and audio arguments .

One of my best friends, Samantha, is obsessed with music and she doesn't even own a stereo. She knows more about more types of music than probably 90% of the people in the audiophile community, and she listens on her computer, and in her car. And people will say that she's not a true music fan because its all MP3, and she doesn't have the right speakers. Sometimes, we can't see the forest for the trees. The most moved I've ever been by a recording was Neil Young's Helpless over a boombox in a bagel shop in Athens, Ohio.

 

[Scuzzer]

did you see the article in today's Trib on playing live music at VA hospitals?

Was is something like this one?

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/16/local/la-me-ptsd-music-20120116

Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Fisherdude]

Was is something like this one?

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/16/local/la-me-ptsd-music-20120116

Bingo! Ain't the interwebz amazing?

 

[Fisherdude]

And in the "small world" category, I graduated from Fresno State University, I used to live in Coarsegold, and my mom still lives there.

 

[Scuzzer]

Wow and I thought I lived in a small town of 5000 growing up in Ill. Only 1840 residents as of 2010, that's like the really small towns around my small town.

 

[Fisherdude]

I lived in Coarsegold and worked in Fresno. It's about a 30 minute drive. Coarsegold isn't even incorporated. When I went to Fresno State the population of Fresno couldn't have been much more than 100,000 or so. It's gotta be at least 500,000 now. I go back every year. Everything has changed so much.

 

[Scuzzer]

and my emotions weren't jaded by 38 years of breakups and audio arguments .

I haven't had many breakups or audio arguments but I think the jaded part might be why I listen to the non-standard crap that seems to scratch a cerebral itch. Might make for a good thread someday.

The most moved I've ever been by a recording was Neil Young's Helpless over a boombox in a bagel shop in Athens, Ohio.

One of the most moving things I've ever heard was on my crappy cd player in a 1978 Jeep Cherokee driving home from a CD store almost 15 years ago. Don't stone me... It was the Heroes Symphony by Philip Glass. If I could recreate that moment by buying a fancy new amp and speakers I might just do it but I think it probably had more to do with the unique circumstances at that time.

 

[just dave]

The most moved I've ever been by a recording was Neil Young's Helpless over a boombox in a bagel shop in Athens, Ohio.

Is there a good story behind this?

 

[JohnVF]

Is there a good story behind this?

Well, not really. It involved a girl that I was in love with who I'd known since we were in middle school, who I dated in high school then broke up with when I was a senior. It was at Ohio University where she was going to school, we had over the previous year begun to let some water under the bridge, and I went to visit her there in Athens. One of those typical times in your youth when you feel the weight of everything coming in the future, in one instant. I had realized that I really did love her after all, pretty much there in that bagel shop, with Helpless playing in the background, echoing off of the brick walls. Kind of like, yeah, this is where my life needs to go. I should leave out the part about dating all through college, long distance, getting engaged, getting unengaged, moving in together, moving out, dating again, breaking up again, moving to different cities, hearing about her new engagement, then having dinner with her in Chicago when she showed up for a conference a few years ago right before her marriage, holding her hand and both of us realizing that we had probably really missed a great thing here.

Not sure that was a good story? But Helpless is still one of my favorite songs. It still gives me chills.

A great live recording of it with video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gKwjxF7ilI

 

[tdat7192]

John, Thank you for sharing that story. It was moving and probably should be a song.

Well, not really. It involved a girl that I was in love with who I'd known since we were in middle school, who I dated in high school then broke up with when I was a senior. It was at Ohio University where she was going to school, we had over the previous year begun to let some water under the bridge, and I went to visit her there in Athens. One of those typical times in your youth when you feel the weight of everything coming in the future, in one instant. I had realized that I really did love her after all, pretty much there in that bagel shop, with Helpless playing in the background, echoing off of the brick walls. Kind of like, yeah, this is where my life needs to go. I should leave out the part about dating all through college, long distance, getting engaged, getting unengaged, moving in together, moving out, dating again, breaking up again, moving to different cities, hearing about her new engagement, then having dinner with her in Chicago when she showed up for a conference a few years ago right before her marriage, holding her hand and both of us realizing that we had probably really missed a great thing here.

Not sure that was a good story? But Helpless is still one of my favorite songs. It still gives me chills.

A great live recording of it with video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gKwjxF7ilI

 

[jsixis]

just like stereos every body is different so the ears decide what sounds the best