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To Veneer or Not to Veneer - Impact on Value?

jnoyes said:
Sorry if I came off as snarky. That looks very good, is it a Pioneer? I really like the grain pattern of that vinyl, what brand is it? I have a pair of Paradigm mini monitors I need to recover.
I have used the Vvivid vinyl to cover some speakers. Sometimes I think a good vinyl is good enough. The vinyl wraps have gotten better and better.

Jon
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No problem, A little snark never hurt anyone.

Yes, it's a PL-514 entry level belt drive that sounds surprisingly good.

The vinyl came from eBay. The brand is DC-Fix and it's part number 346-0037 "mittel nussbaum", or medium walnut. Avoid the #346-0815 "nussbaum dunkel", or dark walnut. There is apparently a batch of misidentified product out there. What it apparently is is #346-0815 "bronze hazelnut". Same part number, different pattern. It's weird looking stuff with a gold patina.

It reminds me of the Korean stuff PE used to sell but that appears to be NLA. The PE stuff was fairly thick so wrapping corners was difficult. The German stuff is thicker than, say, Contact Paper but not as thick as the PE stuff so it wraps a little easier.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/311830860260?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

This is what I'm going to try when I do the turntable in real wood veneer.

http://www.rockler.com/allwood-two-ply-veneer-new-24-inch-x-32-inch

John
 
jnoyes said:
Thanks John!

I have some more of the rosewood I did the Marantz in, if you're interested let me know. Its paper backed 1/42" thick.

Jon
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Thanks. That gives me something to think about. Is that 1/42" including the paper or plus the paper?

John
 
boreas said:
Thanks. That gives me something to think about. Is that 1/42" including the paper or plus the paper?

John
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Including. It's what I typically use. Works well with barely visible edges. Works with any method you want to use. :)

I usually buy either 2' x 8' or 4' x 8' sheets. It's cheaper that way and I do a lot of veneer.


Jon
 
Wow - my little threat sparked quite the discussion! But lots of good info and tips - and some great photos and ideas!

I took a dive into veneering this weekend. I had a pair of older Celestion DL4 speakers - they sound great, but the previous owner removed the vinyl and spray painted the MDF. He did a decent job, but they looked pretty craptactuar. I figured they would be a good starter project - they have a lot more complicated beveled edges than a turntable plinth, so I figured if I didn't make a dog's breakfast out of the Celestions, I'd be pretty confident to take on a simpler but more valuable turntable.

I picked up a 4' X 8' sheet of paper-backed walnut veneer, a can of solvent-based contact cement, some iron-on walnut edging. Sanded off the twenty layers of rattle can from the MDF, and went to town. Spent most of Sunday on the project, and by the end of the day I was pretty pleased - nice sharp corners, good edges, and no chipping or major mistakes. All the trimming and rough sanding is done, I now just need to do the finish sanding, stain and finish. I'll post some pictures as soon as I am finished, but at this point I can call the project an unmitigated success.

Here are a few observations from my first project:
  1. If you have some basic woodworking skills, decent tools (utility knife, square or straight edge, vibrating sander, etc.) it's not that hard!
  2. The contact cement method was easy for the sides - I just gave myself an extra margin in case I misplaced a piece and trimmed it up after the fact. Looks great, seems to have given a good bond.
  3. The iron-on method was better for the tricky edge pieces, since that did require some post-adhesion adjustments to get the mitered 45 degree corner pieces lined up right. And, there's no waiting for it to set besides the time it takes to cool, so great if you're impatient.
  4. Drawbacks on the contact cement method: Can't move it around if you misplace it. Also, solvent-based contact cement is a mess. I didn't know water-based was an option when I pulled this off the shelf or I would have made a different choice. Clean-up is an ordeal - if you put the brush in mineral spirits, the cement turns into a gum that you have to pick out of your brush if you want to use it again. And the fumes took me back to my teenage days of sniffing glue. Had to open up the garage door and all the windows and it still made me light-headed. Having to wait for the cement to set before attaching the pieces also draws out the time of the project.
  5. The iron-on method is not without its drawbacks: the glue, once cooled and set, makes sanding the edges down a bit trickier - it tends to goop up the sandpaper more than contact cement. And while it's nice that you can remelt it and move the pieces around, I'm now typing this with slightly burned fingers from the hot glue seeping out as I was adjusting edge pieces.
Bottom line: a fun way to rejuvenate old gear that doesn't require an extreme amount of artistic skill, just some patience. Pros and cons to both methods - I'll probably go with contact cement on my next TT project, as I bought plenty of nice walnut.

Again, pics to follow, and thanks to everyone who weighed in on this post!
Dennis
 
Ironing on the edge banding is not the same as the Wood glue/iron on method I suggested. I do NOT use expensive veneer with adhesive already applied to it. The method I suggested uses ordinary paper-backed veneer and you apply common yellow wood glue to the veneer and the object being veneered. The glue is allowed to dry and then the veneer can be applied with a household iron. There is no seeping out of any glue with the method I use.

Please don't compare the edge banding to the method I suggested, they are NOT the same thing.

If you are interested in trying it at some point there is information and a video at the Titebond website

Glad you are happy with your project.

Jon
 
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Thanks for the clarification. I might give that a try - I've never applied heat to wood glue like that before and didn't know it had those properties.
 
If this is what jnoyes is recommending, then I will stand by the contact cement method 100% for the following reasons:

1) water based contact cement is much thinner than wood glue, because it is thinner, it is applied much easier and more consistently and the glue line will be invisible
2) contact cement is much more durable
3) contact cement method is faster
4) you don't need an iron
5) you don't need a paper bag
6) contact cement is not easily affected by heat which could be a problem

 
malden said:
If this is what jnoyes is recommending, then I will stand by the contact cement method 100% for the following reasons:

1) water based contact cement is much thinner than wood glue, because it is thinner, it is applied much easier and more consistently and the glue line will be invisible
2) contact cement is much more durable
3) contact cement method is faster
4) you don't need an iron
5) you don't need a paper bag
6) contact cement is not easily affected by heat which could be a problem

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You dilute the wood glue with water and apply two coats. It flows out just fine!

Contact cement is more durable - PROVE IT!

Yes, contact cement method is faster, so what?

OH NO!, irons are so expensive and no one has them in their homes.

OH NO!, so are paper bags

Really, have you ever seen wood glue fail due to the heat at normal home temperatures? Laughable!

Do a search on Formica de-lamination and see what you get! Contact cement doesn't last forever.

Jon
 
jnoyes said:
You dilute the wood glue with water and apply two coats. It flows out just fine!

Contact cement is more durable - PROVE IT!

Yes, contact cement method is faster, so what?

OH NO!, irons are so expensive and no one has them in their homes.

OH NO!, so are paper bags

Really, have you ever seen wood glue fail due to the heat at normal home temperatures? Laughable!

Do a search on Formica de-lamination and see what you get! Contact cement doesn't last forever.

Jon
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Why so sensitive?
 
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jnoyes said:
Why so wrong?
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The method I am suggesting is tried and true, and it has been for decades. It works for me and for just about any professional. It's not wrong, but for some unknown reason, it just isn't right for you.
 
malden said:
The method I am suggesting is tried and true, and it has been for decades. It works for me and for just about any professional. It's not wrong, but for some unknown reason, it just isn't right for you.
Click to expand...

I never said the method you suggested was wrong.

You are wrong in the claims you are making, get it?

You were against what I suggested and making ridiculous arguments before you even knew what the method was, claiming it involved expensive veneer and other assumptions that were clearly wrong.

You are on a mission to discredit me based on previous arguments we have had. You have made it personal

Jon
 
silver faced said:
http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/faq-veneer-glue.htm

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-Heat-Lock-Veneer-Glue.html

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/veneer-techniques
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Thank you for that, here is an excerpt from the first link...

VG13: Can I use yellow glue for veneering?

"Yellow glue (PVA) is probably the first glue that comes to mind when you say "glue" to a woodworker. Despite the recommendations of many woodworkers, I have never found yellow glue to be suitable for veneering. This type of glue never fully hardens, and thus allows the veneer to "creep" or move during seasonal changes in humidity. And because of its thin consistency, yellow glue also has a tendency to bleed through and discolor the veneer. Lastly, since yellow glue dries with a soft glue line, it is also very difficult to sand."
 
piss·ing con·test
noun
vulgar slang
noun: pissing match
  1. a contest or rivalry in which the main concern of the parties involved is the conspicuous demonstration of superiority.
 
What's your point?

I've tried HeatLock glue, it works no better than regular PVA and costs much more.
 
jnoyes said:
I never said the method you suggested was wrong.

You are wrong in the claims you are making, get it?

You were against what I suggested and making ridiculous arguments before you even knew what the method was, claiming it involved expensive veneer and other assumptions that were clearly wrong.

You are on a mission to discredit me based on previous arguments we have had. You have made it personal

Jon
Click to expand...

"Yellow glue (PVA) is probably the first glue that comes to mind when you say "glue" to a woodworker. Despite the recommendations of many woodworkers, I have never found yellow glue to be suitable for veneering. This type of glue never fully hardens, and thus allows the veneer to "creep" or move during seasonal changes in humidity. And because of its thin consistency, yellow glue also has a tendency to bleed through and discolor the veneer. Lastly, since yellow glue dries with a soft glue line, it is also very difficult to sand."

Now do you see where I am coming from?
 
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