Tracking Force - Too Little Damages Records?

[Wigwam Jones]

Well, besides the link Len Gregory (hi fi news test lp) recommends starting at the high end vtf and working downward until distortion is heard. I don't think that conflicts with what you're saying.

So that would tend to indicate that the lightest tracking force at which distortion is not heard would be 'best'. Interesting, thanks. I wonder how that conforms to ideas about wear and tear or actual physical damage, however?

 

[a.wayne]

The only thing too much VTF kills is dynamics , if using a test recording adjusting for lowest distortion on the distortion test usually results in adding more VTF ....

 

[illini]

Seems related to how a worn stylus damages records by failing to trace the grooves; due to the worn edges the diamond can only approximated the curvatures and bangs around inside the groove. Another idea is using a screwdriver with a tip too small or too large for the job - or using one with the correct size but not using enough human force, causing slippage - and the screw heads eventually get all mangled up. Just thinking out loud here. Peace.

 

[a.wayne]

So that would tend to indicate that the lightest tracking force at which distortion is not heard would be 'best'. Interesting, thanks. I wonder how that conforms to ideas about wear and tear or actual physical damage, however?

Correct ...

 

[illini]

So that would tend to indicate that the lightest tracking force at which distortion is not heard would be 'best'. Interesting, thanks. I wonder how that conforms to ideas about wear and tear or actual physical damage, however?

I set mine as low as the test record will allow, which is usually about 0.15 gm below the max vtf.

 

[bangsezmax]

So that would tend to indicate that the lightest tracking force at which distortion is not heard would be 'best'. Interesting, thanks. I wonder how that conforms to ideas about wear and tear or actual physical damage, however?

Caveat -- I would do this using a record that "challenges" your setup. That's why I recommend Aja. The various test records can do the same thing.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Mistracking damages records. Tracking a cartridge at too light of a tracking force can and has caused mistracking. Sometimes a little bit more weight can be less wearing on a record.

 

[Hifirob2]

I use a test record to set my VTF. My current stylus VTF range states .75 - 1.5 grams.

To get it to pass the trackability test on the record, I have to set the VTF at 1.4 grams and the anti-skate at 1.5.

So in my case, I guess I need a rather high VTF to track the best. That may have nothing to do with sound quality, but just in case I play a record with a challenging passage, I know that my stylus will stay put in the groove.

I can't explain the science behind it, but it is what it is.

 

[speedle]

There's another quote that floats around here -- the high end of the VTF is what the engineers use. The low end is what the marketing people use.

I find it very easy to hear distortion caused by mistracking, and it's always always always when the VTF is too low.

Or put it this way -- when I'm troubleshooting a turntable and I hear mistracking (distortion and sibilance in high frequencies), if increasing the VTF does NOT make the bad sounds go away, then I know there's an issue with the stylus, cantilever or tonearm.

It's the same as a car -- if you have weight over the drive wheels, the car handles better. It's making better contact with the road and not bouncing around on the suspension with every little bump.

Low VTF kills records and sounds bad.

Try it yourself if you need any proof!

You were doing great until you got to that car analogy, which is not analogous and totally untrue. Race cars weight less, not more. It's where the weight is located that's more important, and even in that case, over the drive wheels is the worst place often times.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming....

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Seems related to how a worn stylus damages records by failing to trace the grooves; due to the worn edges the diamond can only approximated the curvatures and bangs around inside the groove. Another idea is using a screwdriver with a tip too small or too large for the job - or using one with the correct size but not using enough human force, causing slippage - and the screw heads eventually get all mangled up. Just thinking out loud here. Peace.

That kind of logic is easy to visualize and makes sense. I don't know if that's the actual situation here, but I can grok what you're saying. Thanks!

 

[Wigwam Jones]

Mistracking damages records. Tracking a cartridge at too light of a tracking force can and has caused mistracking. Sometimes a little bit more weight can be less wearing on a record.

You're making a statement, but how do you back that up? Where is the evidence that this is the case? That's what I'm asking. I totally get that people believe what you're saying. What I do not get is the causal relationship between the 'mistracking' you describe and 'damage to the record'. How do you know it damages the record?

 

[montelatici]

I have always used 1.5 grams as the maximum on my Shure V15s, M series and Pickerings without the brush and 1.75 gm. with the brush. I have 40+ year old LPs that were played at 1.5 - 1.75 gm, still in nearly perfect condition. I have a bunch of 45s played on heavy tracking portable players now sound like crap. Again anecdotal, but I think this heavy tracking less wear theory is more fantasy than fact. This is what Shure says and they have a bit of experience.



"Extensive life testing showed that praying at low tracking force has significant advantages in extending the life of both the stylus and the record, provided that no mistracking occurs. The problem that required resolution then, as it does now, is that of offering sufficient trackability throughout the frequency spectrum found on the phonograph record at low tracking force, preferably below 1-1/2 grams.

Through the use of extensive analog computer studies, it was found that a phonograph cartridge design suitable for tracking most of the high level modulation found on phonograph records of that day was feasible. The solution required a stylus much smaller and lighter than those in current use. A design was worked out using a beryllium stiffening rod with a very thin wall aluminum shank and the V15 Type II was the result.

Resolution of the problem of tracking most phonograph records made it possible to recognize a number of sources of playback imperfection which had previously been overshadowed by the more serious mistracking problem. One of the remaining problems was that of nonflat frequency response. Another was a series of difficulties caused by warped records. An extensive study of record warps resulted in an explanation of the need for optimizing cartridge compliance. The studies of record warp as well as additional evaluation of then current recordings reemphasized the need for improving trackability across the total frequency spectrum found on records.

The result of that research was the introduction of the V15 Type III in 1973. That cartridge has a flat frequency response, plays at a tracking force of 3/4 to 1-1/4 grams, employs an optimized stylus compliance, and continues other advantages of the earlier V15 series."

 

[jrtrent]

I Shure seems to feel that 'the lighter the better'. But they also state that a cartridge / stylus has a given range for VTF, and this should be observed. So, the 'lighter the better', but within the manufacturer's recommended VTF range, presumably.

But I'm still not finding any information regarding the stylus rattling around in the groove and causing damage if the VTF is too light, unless that is what Ortofon means by 'mistracking' causing damage.

Does anyone have any other information that might shed some light on this question?

I don't have anything like controlled tests or studies to offer. VPI includes this statement in their turntable manuals:

We recommend always going to the high side of tracking force (actually the high side plus .1 gram is the best). High frequency vibrations on a light-tracking cartridge can cause more damage to the grooves of a record than running a cartridge at a heavy setting.​

I usually just use the cartridge manufacturer's recommendation. Shure recommends 1.25 grams for the M97xE (given range is .75-1.5 grams), so that's what I use, and it works great. My Sumiko Black Pearl has a specified range of 1.5-2 grams, but Sumiko recommends running it at 2 grams, so that's what I do, and it works great. Grado recommends 1.5 grams for their Prestige models (range given as 1-2 grams), but it didn't track well in my Ittok arm til I got to VPI's recommendation of 2.1 grams. With the Longhorn modification, 1.7 grams worked fine. In the damped arm of a Well Tempered, 1.5 grams was perfect.

What I have seen studies on is stylus and record wear as a function of stylus shape and tracking force. Based on those, I don't feel comfortable tracking a small elliptical (i.e., .2 X .7 mil) any higher than 1.5 grams, and those same studies showed that a .7 mil conical tracking at 3 grams does no more wear than the small elliptical at 1.5 grams (though I haven't noticed any wear issues when tracking a .7 mil at up to 4 grams). Larger ellipticals and smaller conicals (e.g., .4 X .7 mil elliptical or .5 mil conical) would land in between somewhere.

Every dealer and company rep I've spoken with seems to agree that tracking on the high side is best, so that's what I do.

 

[Wigwam Jones]

I use a test record to set my VTF. My current stylus VTF range states .75 - 1.5 grams.

To get it to pass the trackability test on the record, I have to set the VTF at 1.4 grams and the anti-skate at 1.5.

So in my case, I guess I need a rather high VTF to track the best. That may have nothing to do with sound quality, but just in case I play a record with a challenging passage, I know that my stylus will stay put in the groove.

I can't explain the science behind it, but it is what it is.

That explains why you choose the VTF you choose, but what about damage to the record. I can totally support the notion of choosing the VTF that sounds the best. Still unsure how a weight that is too light causes actual physical damage.

 

[jrtrent]

"Extensive life testing showed that praying at low tracking force has significant advantages in extending the life of both the stylus and the record,

Yep, praying has all kinds of advantages.

Edit: Montelatici notes later in this thread that the word "praying" is a misspelling in the Shure paper he quoted. Still, I don't see how praying could hurt . . .

 

[Hifirob2]

That explains why you choose the VTF you choose, but what about damage to the record. I can totally support the notion of choosing the VTF that sounds the best. Still unsure how a weight that is too light causes actual physical damage.

On my test record, if I use too light of VTF, the stylus physically jumps out of the groove and moves forward, across the track. What damage is taking place? I can't say, but it can't be good for the stylus, or the actual grooves - IMHO.

 

[bare]

Hard to believe that often played Vinyl records still produce 'as new sound'
That methinks is Untrue
Worked for years in a national studio. Recordings were markedly worn after a dozen playings. That's with the TT's being constantly aligned/setup by the Tech guys (their babies) Using industry standard Stantons with Spherical needles ..only, as Ellipticals were... proven ...to be record destroyers.. chewing up record grooves badly,.. when Not Perfectly setup, every day almost, Something the Tech guys could not manage with reliability.
Consequently the notion of old vinyl recordings being in perfect condition strikes me as a bit more than 'suspect'.

 

[jrtrent]

I have always used 1.5 grams as the maximum on my Shure V15s, M series and Pickerings without the brush and 1.75 gm. with the brush. I have 40+ year old LPs that were played at 1.5 - 1.75 gm, still in nearly perfect condition.

If you tracked your Shure V15 or V15 Type II at 1.5 grams, you were following the recommendation to track on the high side, since that was the maximum tracking force recommended for that cartridge. If you used 1.75 with the models using a brush, you were also effectively tracking at their highest rating of 1.25 grams. The Pickering, however, when set to 1.75 grams with the brush, only had an effective tracking force of .75 grams, so you were at its lowest recommended setting.

 

[jrtrent]

Hard to believe that often played Vinyl records still produce 'as new sound'
That methinks is Untrue
Worked for years in a national studio. Recordings were markedly worn after a dozen playings. .

I did a casual record wear test of my own using a Lulu Roman Smith album. I played one side of it every day for 100 straight days using a Stanton 500 AL Mk II cartridge tracking at 3.25 grams and mounted on a Stanton STR8-80 turntable--yes, the one with the straight, underhung arm with rather severe tracking angle error. There was no discernible drop in listening quality after those 100 days, whether played on the Stanton or on my Linn LP12/Ittok fitted with the same cartridge. That was when I stopped worrying about record wear provided I had a clean, unworn stylus tracking at a heavy enough weight.

 

[Hifirob2]

Recordings were markedly worn after a dozen playings. .

Sorry, but I call BS on this statement. Was the stylus a nail? I have hundreds of records, played dozens of times each, with no noticeable loss of sound quality. Properly care for your records, and they'll outlast you.