Tracking Force - Too Little Damages Records?
- Thread starter Wigwam Jones
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opinion trumps all .... :lmao:
jnoyes
Super Member
What Shure replied was not on point. The question as to whether setting tracking weight lower than the manufacturer recommeded was not asked or answered.
The question asked was (paraphrasing), Is lower tracking force better? There was nothing regarding the manufacturers recommendation. You interpreted the response in a way that suited your point. I don't see it that way at all.
If the question was on point, Shure may very well have given a different answer.
Jon
jnoyes
Super Member
You're clearly just arguing for the sake of arguing. Nothing short of pictures of damage to the record grooves, caused by too low a tracking force, certified by NIST, or NASA, or whomever is likely to change your mind. So, go ahead, it's your vinyl, your money, your choice! Ain't no skin off my nose (or vinyl)!
BYE!
Jon
BYE!
Jon
Cadillac Kid
Addicted Member
Yup. There seems to be a pattern here.
gusten
Addicted Member
Firstly, how would it make any sense that a needle that is NOT mistracking would cause wear, if tracked lighter than spec?
Secondly, how would it cause wear IF starting to mistrack when the vinyl velocity under the needle is so extremely high as it is. That the vinyl doesn´t wear out in the first place, mistracking or not, is very much depending on the high velocity. Why would there be a difference in wear even if stylus is mistracking? Even if the stylus is 'bouncing around' it doesn´t hit a spot, it gently hits a very large area as the vinyl is rapidly moving when the needle is bouncing, which makes the vinyl very hard.
I can see other reasons for wear, but I can´t see it in this case.
gusten
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Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Shure said lower tracking force is better. If lower tracking force damages records, they would not have said that. Apparently, they don't think it does.
In any case, I'm not looking for consensus; I'm looking for the basis of the often-repeated warning that tracking light causes increased wear or damage to records, and I'm not finding it.
Sometimes, that means it is not there to be found.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
A pattern of asking a simple question, which is not being answered.
I did not ask what the overall opinion on VTF is.
I did not ask if anyone had any pet theories that could explain why the rumor was accurate.
I did not ask what the manufacturers recommended value for VTF is.
I ask from whence came the rumor.
The answer appears to be that no one knows.
That doesn't make the rumor wrong. But it doesn't make it right, either. So it appears that no one here actually knows.
And that does answer my question. The answer is we do not know if lighter tracking force damages records or not. We only have our opinions and rumor.
a.wayne
Well-Known Member
Here's JA's take on this :
http://www.stereophile.com/content/tweaking-your-record-player-page-8
It is commonly believed that increasing a pickup's tracking force causes a corresponding increase in the rate of record wear. This is not so. It's not tracking force that matters, it's contact pressure, and because vinyl has a certain amount of elasticity, increasing the tracking force causes the stylus to sink farther into the vinyl, thus increasing contact-surface area. The pressure increases much less rapidly than force. Yes, there is a point where excessive force will exceed the vinyl's elastic limit, causing permanent groove indenting, but with most elliptical styli, this apparently doesn't happen until tracking force exceeds about 2.25gm.
The thing that does the most damage to record grooves is cartridge mistracking. When a stylus is simply incapable of following the groove modulations, it exerts contact pressures hundreds of times higher than when tracking an unmodulated groove. The fact that a lousy cartridge may require 5gm of force to eliminate most mistracking is what gave rise to the idea that it was the high tracking force that ruined discs. It is, rather, the stylus's inability to stay with the grooves at any reasonable force that does the damage. With a cartridge that tracks fairly cleanly at up to 2gm, you should expect several hundred plays before a highly modulated disc is ready for the dustbin.
-JA
http://www.stereophile.com/content/tweaking-your-record-player-page-8
It is commonly believed that increasing a pickup's tracking force causes a corresponding increase in the rate of record wear. This is not so. It's not tracking force that matters, it's contact pressure, and because vinyl has a certain amount of elasticity, increasing the tracking force causes the stylus to sink farther into the vinyl, thus increasing contact-surface area. The pressure increases much less rapidly than force. Yes, there is a point where excessive force will exceed the vinyl's elastic limit, causing permanent groove indenting, but with most elliptical styli, this apparently doesn't happen until tracking force exceeds about 2.25gm.
The thing that does the most damage to record grooves is cartridge mistracking. When a stylus is simply incapable of following the groove modulations, it exerts contact pressures hundreds of times higher than when tracking an unmodulated groove. The fact that a lousy cartridge may require 5gm of force to eliminate most mistracking is what gave rise to the idea that it was the high tracking force that ruined discs. It is, rather, the stylus's inability to stay with the grooves at any reasonable force that does the damage. With a cartridge that tracks fairly cleanly at up to 2gm, you should expect several hundred plays before a highly modulated disc is ready for the dustbin.
-JA
gusten
Addicted Member
As I see it that type of opinion cannot stand much scrutiny, it is clearly just made up.
gusten
a.wayne
Well-Known Member
Here's Shure's take , too little tracking force does cause record damage ...
http://55d5340a043a828856e1-f62de27...m/user_guide/upload/732/us_pro_c-pek-2_ug.pdf
WARNING: More Expert opinion and analysis .....
http://55d5340a043a828856e1-f62de27...m/user_guide/upload/732/us_pro_c-pek-2_ug.pdf
WARNING: More Expert opinion and analysis .....
a.wayne
Well-Known Member
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
It is good information, written by J. Gordon Holt for Stereophile in 1990. However, let's take note of a couple things. As respected as Stereophile is (well, depending, some people of course discount everything they write regarding reviews of equipment), there are no sources cited. This is an opinion piece. It doesn't make it wrong, but it does make it opinion. As such, it is more of what we're already seeing in this thread. Everyone has an opinion, most people got it from somewhere, but no one knows from whence it originally came.
One might also note that even in the above article, Holt did not state that a lighter tracking force than a heavier one causes more wear. He simply said that the rumor that a heavier tracking force causes more wear was false; he did not state that the opposite was true.
You might recall that a few pages back, I made an analogy to the old and often-repeated rumor that a person should drink 8 glasses of water a day. Hey, I have read it in publications. My doctor has said it to me as well. Should that not make it true? Should that not be enough evidence for me? I mean, professional magazines printed it, doctors said it. Why question it further?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/water/NU00283
In other words, it's good to drink water, and it's not the worst advice in the world, it's generally accurate. But no one knows if that's actually factual. It's easy to remember.
"Light tracking force damages records." Easy to remember? True? Maybe. No one, apparently, actually knows. If J. Gordon Holt knew, he did not cite his sources. One can choose to believe that his knowledge and expertise were such that his saying something makes it true. But that's simply choosing to accept an opinion, like me accepting it when my doctor says to drink 8 glasses of water a day. It doesn't make it true, although it might have a basis in fact (and it might not).
I note that later on in that same article, Holt stated "All cleaning solvents leach some of the plasticizer out of the vinyl, and while the amount is insignificant each time, it can add up to a significant loss of groove-wall flexibility if repeated dozens of times." I have heard that one many times also, and like the VTF issue, I have seen no proof of this. People SAY it, but they generally do not know if it is true or not, and do not seem to know from whence the rumor sprang. Is it true? Maybe it is! But maybe it is not. No real answers here; these are one man's opinions. A well-respected man, to be sure. But it doesn't mean it's true, especially with no sources cited.
I have numerous records from my 'lightest tracking is best' phase that are groove damaged. Can I PROVE that is why they are groove damaged, to your satisfaction? Nope. But I've increased the VTF since then, and the records don't get groove damaged.
I agree with posters who observe that you are arguing for the sake of argument.
I agree with posters who observe that you are arguing for the sake of argument.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Ah, this is actually good information. But let's look at it.
IX. TRACKING
The ability of a cartridge to track properly at a minimum force is very desirable; the wear on the record and the stylus is kept to a minimum. However, a stylus tracking at a force too light to maintain contact with the groove wall (mistracking) can cause permanent damage to the recording. Therefore, the proper adjustment of the tracking force is very important in terms of both reducing mistracking distortion and insuring maximum stylus and record life.
A stereo pickup in good condition should be able to track Band 10 or 14 cmlsec at the median recommended force. A high trackability cartridge should be able to track properly on Band 7 or 8 at the median tracking force recommended by the manufacturer. If a cartridge is rated at 2 to 4 grams, the median force is 3 grams. The force should now be set to the required value.
What does this mean? In simple terms, it means that if the VTF is so light that mistracking occurs, damage also occurs. OK, good information from the manufacturer.
Now, let us assume that mistracking is not occurring (and the PDF goes into detail about how to use a test record and an oscilloscope to show whether or not it is mistracking).
The article says nothing about additional wear or damage to the record if mistracking is not occurring, nor does it state (anywhere that I can find) that heavier force causes less wear than lighter force. Only that mistracking causes damage, which is not hard to understand.
I think we are missing some logical connections here. Lighter VTF can lead to mistracking (true), and mistracking damages records (true). Therefore, lighter VTF causes more wear and tear on a record than higher VTF (conjecture). I do not read Shure saying the latter in the PDF you linked to. If I am missing it, please let me know where it says that.
bobins08
Celebrating Life
Too low a VTF can damage records grooves?
You believe this is a rumor. No technical data exists to prove to you that this is true. No manufactures data or recommendations are relavent. Experience of others or intuitive logic will not work for you.
I get it.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Anyone who cannot provide a basis for the belief that lighter tracking force causes more wear than higher tracking force seems to be also of the opinion that I should just shut up. Sorry, that's not how I roll. Do you shut up when people tell you to?
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
No, apparently you do not.
If the VTF is sufficiently low that mistracking occurs, it damages records. THAT, I get. No problem.
And if the VTF is low but does NOT cause mistracking? Is lower VTF causing more wear (and/or damage) than higher VTF? No one has answered that, except with opinion. Not one of the links and cites to technical data and magazine articles has addressed that.
Assume that I set the VTF low, but mistracking is not occurring. Then I set it high, and again, mistracking is not occurring. Which one causes more wear and/or damage to the record? That's the question. The answer seems based only on opinion, and a lot of people assuming that if the VTF is low, mistracking is therefore always occurring. I see no technical or professional evidence of anyone saying that.
guiller
Toscaninichus Australis
Could you use one of this records to perform a systematic study, lowering the VTF and documenting the sound changes you notice? For example, to look for the existence of a threshold VFT value. Once you hear distortion clearly, presumably the groove has been damaged and you could verify this damage by playing again the record with the correct VTF value, etc. Perhaps a bit more of experimental data would be better to clear up this issue rather than relying of theoretical discussions, at least IMHO.
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